England 6 Nation squad 2024

[dirty harry]

No we shouldn't be losing to record scores or Fiji at home. Over the last 18 months given the level of opposition please explain how we are performing better than Ireland. Other than we beat a lower ranked team in the quaters and then lost to a team Ireland beat at the world cup.

Do you honestly think we are better than Ireland and France currently. I admire you optimistic outlook but that would be a reach.

I'm a bit of a stats man...

Ireland made a RWC quarter final, England made a semi.

England are, without argument the best performing 6N side at the last RWC. Is that not a fact?

Like I said, England were a shambles when SB took over, he had to right the ship, and turn the results around. He was never going to win the 6N 2023 so he decided to use it to see what the team were capable of.

World cup warm ups are exactly that, he named a strong team, and watched how they responded to Fiji. A few weeks later he righted that result in a RWC quarter final.

The sign of a good coach isnt selection and results at every game, its progression, its learning how to win and doing it when it matters.

Like I said, ask Ireland which RWC build up and tournament they would prefer, theirs or Englands.

Ireland, included that greatest Ireland team of all time, have never reached a semi final, and England did. SB now has to be allowed this tournament, because last year was all about turning the results around, if by the end of the 6N he has 3/4 defeats and hasnt shown progression in terms of style of play, or breathing new life into this team, then let's by all means start to question if hes the right man.

But for now, I say give the guy a break, and in the immortal words...

Let him cook!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'm a bit of a stats man...

Ireland made a RWC quarter final, England made a semi.

England are, without argument the best performing 6N side at the last RWC. Is that not a fact?

Like I said, England were a shambles when SB took over, he had to right the ship, and turn the results around. He was never going to win the 6N 2023 so he decided to use it to see what the team were capable of.

World cup warm ups are exactly that, he named a strong team, and watched how they responded to Fiji. A few weeks later he righted that result in a RWC quarter final.

The sign of a good coach isnt selection and results at every game, its progression, its learning how to win and doing it when it matters.

Like I said, ask Ireland which RWC build up and tournament they would prefer, theirs or Englands.

Ireland, included that greatest Ireland team of all time, have never reached a semi final, and England did. SB now has to be allowed this tournament, because last year was all about turning the results around, if by the end of the 6N he has 3/4 defeats and hasnt shown progression in terms of style of play, or breathing new life into this team, then let's by all means start to question if hes the right man.

But for now, I say give the guy a break, and in the immortal words...

Let him cook!

Best performing =/= getting furthest. Honestly don't know why you stick to this... The Irish and French teams that lost their games would have beaten England easily. England did not play a team in the top 5 until the semi final, when they lost. Ireland and France both played a top 5 team in the pool and the quarter finals, with Ireland playing 2 top 5 teams in the pool.

 

[Jimbo]

And the England results were SB's fault, not SB having to turn around a sinking ship?

What exactly were you guys expecting last season, a 6N ***le, win your warm ups and a RWC win?

There were a lot of people talking about England not getting out of the group. Truth is SB needed to use the 6N and warm ups as a tool, and his RWC performance was stand out.

Come RWC warm ups, ask Ireland whether they wanted a stuttering run to a semi, or beat the best team in the world in the groups, anhialate everyone in front of them and crash out in a quarter.

England are currently the best performing 6N team!

The ships still sinking doing more or less the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity, all most are asking is a playing style not devoid of attacking intent and in form players to get a descent opportunity, is that really too much to ask, we all know England had group in the WC, so let's not use that as an excuse to counter a poor season, the WC is over it's now time for SB to show what he's made of and make some descent selection calls, failure to do so is without justification and completely on him. Judging him on that is in no way unreasonable.

 

[dirty harry]

Best performing =/= getting furthest. Honestly don't know why you stick to this... The Irish and French teams that lost their games would have beaten England easily. England did not play a team in the top 5 until the semi final, when they lost. Ireland and France both played a top 5 team in the pool and the quarter finals, with Ireland playing 2 top 5 teams in the pool.

Yes, Ireland and France would have beaten Fiji and made a semi final...

And if your Aunt had testies she would be your uncle, but she hasnt, and she isnt.

Ireland = NEVER made a semi final, how on earth can you say Ireland fans wouldnt have swapped their RWC performance for Englands? Ludicrous statements

 

[dirty harry]

The ships still sinking doing more or less the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity, all most are asking is a playing style not devoid of attacking intent and in form players to get a descent opportunity, is that really too much to ask, we all know England had group in the WC, so let's not use that as an excuse to counter a poor season, the WC is over it's now time for SB to show what he's made of and make some descent selection calls, failure to do so is without justification and completely on him. Judging him on that is in no way unreasonable.

Judging him on this season is perfectly reasonable, on last season is ludicrous! A coach new in spends 18 months working with someone elses squad, and someone elses tactics, it takes time to implement what you want to do, and 6 months out from a RWC makes it even harder.

IMHO if SB gets 3 wins this 6N it's progression for England.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yes, Ireland and France would have beaten Fiji and made a semi final...

And if your Aunt had testies she would be your uncle, but she hasnt, and she isnt.

Ireland = NEVER made a semi final, how on earth can you say Ireland fans wouldnt have swapped their RWC performance for Englands? Ludicrous statements

Again you are conflating performance with final position. No Ireland fan would have swapped their performance with England's. England were able to get a semi and still couldn't perform to get any further, as men around the world will all struggle with at some point. Swapping position would not have made the performance any better.

At this stage you seem to be coming across as just a WUM trying to get a rise out of the Irish posters by spouting utter ********.

 

[dirty harry]

Again you are conflating performance with final position. No Ireland fan would have swapped their performance with England's. England were able to get a semi and still couldn't perform to get any further, as men around the world will all struggle with at some point. Swapping position would not have made the performance any better.

At this stage you seem to be coming across as just a WUM trying to get a rise out of the Irish posters by spouting utter ********.

So wait, is your argument that Ireland fans would not have wanted to struggle and stutter their way into a first ever RWC semi final in Sept 2023?! That's you genuine position?!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

So wait, is your argument that Ireland fans would not have wanted to struggle and stutter their way into a first ever RWC semi final in Sept 2023?! That's you genuine position?!

Ok you've now proven you are just being a WUM, that's not what I said and you know it. For the last time, the POSITION and the PERFOMANCE of the 2 sides are not the same. Irish fans would have been happy to swap the POSITION, they would not have been happy to swap the PERFORMANCE. England performed worse than Ireland and only got further due to the luck of the draw and facing much easier opposition.

Honestly, this isn't a difficult concept.

 

[dirty harry]

I

Ok you've now proven you are just being a WUM, that's not what I said and you know it. For the last time, the POSITION and the PERFOMANCE of the 2 sides are not the same. Irish fans would have been happy to swap the POSITION, they would not have been happy to swap the PERFORMANCE. England performed worse than Ireland and only got further due to the luck of the draw and facing much easier opposition.

Honestly, this isn't a difficult concept.

Keep hearing this BS about the 'luck of the draw'...

The draw is a small amount of luck, but the vast majority is earned.

All teams know when the draw is made, it's up to them to peak at the time of draw! It's by no means random!!!

Also, you run around throwing out insults, call me WUM all you like but performance dictates position. England make semis all the time, they have made finals, and have won it, Ireland have played better for periods over the last 20 years, but have never reached a semi! Ireland at this point need to get over that hump so badly noone would care if they were outgunned, outplayed and dominated for 79 mins by Fiji, Argentina or Romania in a quarter, if they hit that match winning point and progress it's a record breaking season!

So yes, every fan who has never made a semi, or who has never got out of their group would sacrifice EVERYTHING if they manage it.

It's so arrogant to think making a semi is luck, how has Scotland or Ireland never had that bit of luck in 11 attempts?

 

[Jimbo]

Judging him on this season is perfectly reasonable, on last season is ludicrous! A coach new in spends 18 months working with someone elses squad, and someone elses tactics, it takes time to implement what you want to do, and 6 months out from a RWC makes it even harder.

IMHO if SB gets 3 wins this 6N it's progression for England.

Progression is getting the nation positive about English rugby again, results at this stage is only part of the picture. I will happily take 4th or 5 place if in form players are picked and allowed to play in a way that suits their strength. For the most part in positions which they actually play at for club! As stranger concept as that seems to be for England coaches.

I think your argument about unrealistic expectations is being slightly twisted for your own justification, most people on here I've seen have said for the most part his hands were tied for last season and made an ok job of the situation WC wise, that doesn't undo the historical thumping at the Frenches hands at HQ or loss to Fiji, regardless of what followed after.

Edit my poor maths I won't take 5th happily!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Feel like this is a realllly drawn out attempt to justify Wales losing to England this 6N
"Nah I've been saying England are the best team in the world all tournament, us losing to a team of such high calibre means nothing"

 

[dirty harry]

Progression is getting the nation positive about English rugby again, results at this stage is only part of the picture. I will happily take 4th or 5 place if in form players are picked and allowed to play in a way that suits their strength. For the most part in positions which they actually play at for club! As stranger concept as that seems to be for England coaches.

I think your argument about unrealistic expectations is being slightly twisted for your own justification, most people on here I've seen have said for the most part his hands were tied for last season and made an ok job of the situation WC wise, that doesn't undo the historical thumping at the Frenches hands at HQ or loss to Fiji, regardless of what followed after.

Edit my poor maths I won't take 5th happily!

I get your upset by those losses, but they are warm up games. France arent knocking Galtie for losing to Scotland and crashing out in the quarters...

Welsh fans arent on Gats back for being humiliated by SA.

Most fans understand the predicament their team is in, and the context behind those losses. I dont understand, in a thread of English fans, I'm the sole voice of reason in defence of SB lol. Trust me come next week that will chaaaaaange, but for this week im reasonable and empathetic to Englands struggle.

 

[dirty harry]

Feel like this is a realllly drawn out attempt to justify Wales losing to England this 6N
"Nah I've been saying England are the best team in the world all tournament, us losing to a team of such high calibre means nothing"

Well my predictions on the Welsh thread blow that theory out of the water, I have Wales winning the spoon this season!

 

[Jimbo]

Feel like this is a realllly drawn out attempt to justify Wales losing to England this 6N
"Nah I've been saying England are the best team in the world all tournament, us losing to a team of such high calibre means nothing"

What I'm hearing is the entire international calendar comes down to one tournament every 4 years, as long as you make a semi nothing else counts, personally I'd take Irelands GS and a qf exit in a WC over 3rd place an a couple of negative historic firsts.

 

[dirty harry]

What I'm hearing is the entire international calendar comes down to one tournament every 4 years, as long as you make a semi nothing else counts, personally I'd take Irelands GS and a qf exit in a WC over 3rd place an a couple of negative historic firsts.

But your reframing the argument...

I've just made the point about how RWC seedlings are important to peak for. I've only devalued warm up games.

But let me ask you, would you have preferred Irelands RWC including warm ups, or Englands? Because I promise you Ireland fans would swap in a heart beat!

 

[Jimbo]

But your reframing the argument...

I've just made the point about how RWC seedlings are important to peak for. I've only devalued warm up games.

But let me ask you, would you have preferred Irelands RWC including warm ups, or Englands? Because I promise you Ireland fans would swap in a heart beat!

You're proving my point! Your literally focussing on the single tournament including warmups and writing off the crap that predated that, a record hiding to France at HQ (not a warmup) I'd prefer to have won a GS and faced a QF exit, whilst playing some fantastic rugby and have the nation behind me, than limp to a Semi final.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It's so arrogant to think making a semi is luck, how has Scotland or Ireland never had that bit of luck in 11 attempts?

Just the 2 mistakes in one sentence.

 

[dirty harry]

You're proving my point! Your literally focussing on the single tournament including warmups and writing off the crap that predated that, a record hiding to France at HQ (not a warmup) I'd prefer to have won a GS and faced a QF exit, whilst playing some fantastic rugby and have the nation behind me, than limp to a Semi final.

SB got hold of the England team with a handful of training sessions before the 6N, in a RWC year...

You would have enjoyed a GS would you? Hahahahaha delusion!!!

SB had no time to select properly, let alone implement a gameplan, his ONLY option was to build...

Yes I would prefer a GS, 25 lions tourists, an unbeaten autumn and record wins over the SH side and go out in the quarters too lol, but your argument is not good faith.

 

[dirty harry]

Just the 2 mistakes in one sentence.

Oh dont be pedantic, Scotland lucked 1 semi in what 10 tournaments...

Mind you I'd relish that if my group progression was less than 50% too lol

 

[Saintjay]

But your reframing the argument...

I've just made the point about how RWC seedlings are important to peak for. I've only devalued warm up games.

But let me ask you, would you have preferred Irelands RWC including warm ups, or Englands? Because I promise you Ireland fans would swap in a heart beat!

I'd have preferred retaining the Calcuta Cup, winning a grandslam and winning a series against the All Blacks in NZ. Being capable of beating South Africa at a world cup would be nice as well.

Nobody remembers who got the bronze. It certainly wasn't Borthwick who got England a favourable draw either.