England 2024/25

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

A league convert winger would be looking to solve a problem we don't have.

I don't see any issue with picking a will butt or S Atkinson and just going with them in every England test until the WC. We currently pick people who don't even play 12 for their club so let's just pick a player and stick to them. Slade isn't a 12 and offer very little there and while Lawrence has done a good job in the past he's our best 13.

It's madness that we are still discussing 12 for another year.

 

[Which Tyler]

I don't see any issue with picking a will butt or S Atkinson and just going with them in every England test until the WC. We currently pick people who don't even play 12 for their club so let's just pick a player and stick to them.

How long do you think Butt will be playing 12 for his club?
At best, his form has earned him 2nd choice, but realistically 3rd choice IC

 

[Lé Ddanno]

A league convert winger would be looking to solve a problem we don't have.

I don't see any issue with picking a will butt or S Atkinson and just going with them in every England test until the WC. We currently pick people who don't even play 12 for their club so let's just pick a player and stick to them. Slade isn't a 12 and offer very little there and while Lawrence has done a good job in the past he's our best 13.

It's madness that we are still discussing 12 for another year.

We've been discussing 12 for literally twenty years now. Shontayne Hape anyone? We just don't produce ICs and Farrell being an apparently mandatory part of the team sort of masked that issue for 5+ years. (And inflated caps and points beyond all reason but anyway)

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

We've been discussing 12 for literally twenty years now. Shontayne Hape anyone? We just don't produce ICs that we are prepared to give caps to and Farrell being an apparently mandatory part of the team sort of masked that issue for 5+ years. (And inflated caps and points beyond all reason but anyway)

FTFY

 

[Lé Ddanno]

FTFY

Kiiiiind of?

We have been a bit barren there. We've had - from memory and leaving out the current team a bit - Wilkinson, Hape, Flood, Barrit, Farrell, Tuilagi. Not a real 12 among them - it could be argued - some should have been 6/7s and the rest were OCs or 10s. I can't think of any real prem 12s that were screwed over in the last 20 years but happy to be corrected (while accepting that the situation was so bad that we should have very very fast tracked Ojomoh, Anyanwu and so on). Dingwall, more recently, could do a job. But it's very much 'could do a job'.

But maybe that's what we need right now cause Slade and Lawrence/Lawrence and Slade sure ain't it

 

[Geordie]

We don't need a league winger. We have an abundance of wingers who can potentially be exceptionally good.

I was never sold on Steward going to 12 but I'm starting to see it now. Plus see how Seb Atkinson and Olly Hartley come through.

Full back is well covered now...Freeman, Furbank, Hendy, Carpenter, Redshaw and 13 should be covered with Lawrence, Beard etc etc...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

How long do you think Butt will be playing 12 for his club?
At best, his form has earned him 2nd choice, but realistically 3rd choice IC

I guess my point was Slade and Lawrence don't even play 12 for their club so it's obviously not a pre-requisite……although him being 3rs choice and probably not getting any game time is an issue.

Not going to mention to you that Bath are currently hogging two potential England 12s though. Think they both need to move to get game time.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

We don't need a league winger. We have an abundance of wingers who can potentially be exceptionally good.

I was never sold on Steward going to 12 but I'm starting to see it now. Plus see how Seb Atkinson and Olly Hartley come through.

Full back is well covered now...Freeman, Furbank, Hendy, Carpenter, Redshaw and 13 should be covered with Lawrence, Beard etc etc...

Thing is that we want to be one of the top 3 or 4 teams in the world. That means getting our structure and game plan right, but it also means having players who can individually influence games.

Most of those name checked are decent club players about whom we have no real idea whether they'd be able to make the step up to the top level and excel there - law of averages says most can't.

The jury's still out on Lawrence and Furbank who've had a few moments, but not regularly influenced big matches. You can blame systems and structure but the best find a way to stamp their presence on matches more often than not. Put it another way, would either get into the Boks, ABs, Fra or Ire teams? Or Sco or even Ita?

You can argue that it's easier on the wing, but IFW has shown the extra instinct and imagination that can make a difference. Like the look of Sleightholme as an attacking force, yet to be convinced in defence although you can say the same for the whole team. A bit of showboating against Jap is one thing but overall Freeman was quiet, calls to see him in the centre will get louder.

 

[Geordie]

Thing is that we want to be one of the top 3 or 4 teams in the world. That means getting our structure and game plan right, but it also means having players who can individually influence games.

Most of those name checked are decent club players about whom we have no real idea whether they'd be able to make the step up to the top level and excel there - law of averages says most can't.

The jury's still out on Lawrence and Furbank who've had a few moments, but not regularly influenced big matches. You can blame systems and structure but the best find a way to stamp their presence on matches more often than not. Put it another way, would either get into the Boks, ABs, Fra or Ire teams? Or Sco or even Ita?

You can argue that it's easier on the wing, but IFW has shown the extra instinct and imagination that can make a difference. Like the look of Sleightholme as an attacking force, yet to be convinced in defence although you can say the same for the whole team. A bit of showboating against Jap is one thing but overall Freeman was quiet, calls to see him in the centre will get louder.

Yes the gameplan and structure is the critical parts...attack and defence. I completely agree, then you need the players how fit that gameplan to the max.

The problem we have now with the players is we have very few positions which are set in stone (Lock at the moment, Marcus Smith, maybe Waboso, cant think of any others) and a host of talented kids of differing skill sets and physical attributes coming through who are showing up well for their clubs.

Its now Borthwick and his teams responsibility to decide which ones looks like becoming the best and progressing them. We have this scenario in most positions.

Full back for example.
Steward and Furbank are the chosen 2
But Steward cant make a one on one tackle when its not straight on, and Furbanks form has fallen off a cliff and how will he adapt to the new high ball rules?

Then you have 5/6 "kids" who are at different stages of establishing themselves in the prem,

The new rules mean your going to need a 15 who can take a clean high ball with a load of chasers hunting him with no protection now.

Freeman was quiet as you say. I think centre or Full back will be a good shout for him...and im more and more thinking Steward to 12. But we'll see if either of those materialize.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Can't see Tigers playing Steward at 12

 

[LIONSxv]

Really not sold on FS to IC. I suspect his weaknesses would get shown up quickly. In particular his slowness on the half turn.

He is poor defensively with any form of footwork. Something he would face much more at IC

 

[Scotty]

Can't see Tigers playing Steward at 12

I can't either but his has the size/power and great for chasing kicks right down the centre, it would improve his passing game alot and hopfully his reading of the game in defence.

Could be great for him even if just for a season or 2(as he's young) then back to FB a better player. Or he prefers it.

I'm all for it but can't see it happening.

 

[Geordie]

Can't see Tigers playing Steward at 12

I cant either

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Quite hilarious really

 

[Scotty]

All this talk of players and how bad our defence is. I really think someone needs to go from this England set up and be replaced with a real top tier attack coach, we don't have the attacking structure in place to breakdown defences and instead rely on individual brilliance.

Our defence needs work but we were in the game 2 points/missed kick from NZ, 1 score from Aus(who stepped up their attack massively) and 9 points from the double world champions.

I think our defence needs work and cohesion but our attacking game needs a complete overall, we are pretty toothless.

I don't want us turning into Bristol where you score 40 but we score 50, I want more what Saints did, strong attack so soon as that defence settled and got more secure they dominated. I want us to be able to have a few more gears to go into in a tight game.

 

[BrokenWing]

I really think someone needs to go from this England set up and be replaced with a real top tier attack coach,

We had one. We made him defence coach. He left.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Quite hilarious really

If you exclude a few more games we've got a win rate of 100%

 

[BPM]

Looking at the year as a whole, there is no shame in losing by a handful of points to teams that are objectively better (and certainly more consistent). The issue is that there was no sign of improvement and if anything, we looked like we're getting worse rather than getting better. Some of that is explained by the coaching upheaval, but it still isn't good enough.

That said, the results that bother me more are Australia and Scotland. Those are scalps we should be taking but we didn't.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If you exclude a few more games we've got a win rate of 100%

Unbeaten in the whole of January, April, May, June, August, September, October and December. What a year!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Looking forward to the 6N, meeting the target of 4 wins is unlikely. Ire away first up is the obvious banana skin although we do have 3 at home and Wal should be beatable anywhere.

Who would we like to see? I'd go:

1. Genge. A bit reluctantly, but who else?

2. LCD. It'll be George

3. Stuart. Improving.

4. Itoje

5. Martin

6. Chessum

7. Underhill

8. CCS

We can talk about footballers and balance in the pack all we want but it's clear that serious physicality still matters at this level. This lot should be able to provide some go forward while hitting very hard in defence. Hard to think of a much better set piece unit although George's darts are probably still marginally better than LCD's and Isiekwe's probably our top guy in the air although Chessum returning largely covers that off.

9. Mitchell

10. M Smith

11. Sleightholme

12. Lawrence. Reluctantly, but who else?

13. Freeman. Punt, but worth trying

14. IFW

15. Furbank, although far from convinced.

Not totally sure on bench but maybe something like: Baxter, Langdon, Davison (let AOF loose next year), Earl, T Curry, JvP, F Smith, Daly (useful utility cover).

Also assumes everyone's fit which is unlikely.