England 2024/25

[BPM]

Yes, but I'd also add that Esterhuizen's distribution skills are generally very underrated.

Part of what made him so good for us was the fact that defenders assumed they knew what was coming. Often they were right but he also did a great job of creating space for others and making passes that were unexpected.

The bottom line is that the best attack keeps defenders guessing. A good, hard carrying centre can be very effective but the best ones have more to their game. Nonu and SBW being good (albeit different) examples.

 

[Geordie]

He isn't small. He's about 6'3" and pretty well built. He's just not a bosh type of centre. More in the Twelvetrees mould.

Physical size is a way down my priority list when assessing backs, but I don't think our backs are exceptionally small. We're just trying to play a power game which doesn't actually make the best of what we have.

If size is your preference, Atkinson, Hartley, Butt and Beard are all big men. Roebuck too.

I honestly would never have put him at that size, I looked him up and he was listed at around 5'10. I stand corrected but still maintain we have a small backline compared to many of the top tier teams at the moment.

Physical size and power is massively important in the game and in the backs you need a balanced amount to compliment your skilled speedsters.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yes, but I'd also add that Esterhuizen's distribution skills are generally very underrated.

Part of what made him so good for us was the fact that defenders assumed they knew what was coming. Often they were right but he also did a great job of creating space for others and making passes that were unexpected.

The bottom line is that the best attack keeps defenders guessing. A good, hard carrying centre can be very effective but the best ones have more to their game. Nonu and SBW being good (albeit different) examples.

This, it's why I never personally rated Jamie Roberts. He was a very powerful carrier but that's all he was. He had a year or 2 being very effective but once teams realised he had nothing else to his game, he was frequently getting stopped dead. He had no kicking, passing or offloading game to make the defence think he was going to do anything other than run right at them.

Unfortunately this outdated type of 12 seems to be what England want with a similarly limited gameplan...

 

[Geordie]

This, it's why I never personally rated Jamie Roberts. He was a very powerful carrier but that's all he was. He had a year or 2 being very effective but once teams realised he had nothing else to his game, he was frequently getting stopped dead. He had no kicking, passing or offloading game to make the defence think he was going to do anything other than run right at them.

Unfortunately this outdated type of 12 seems to be what England want with a similarly limited gameplan...

I dont think they do.

i think want a player at 12 who has good hands but someone who also has some physicality to truck it up when needed as most teams have.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Size isn't the be all and end all but manipulating defences is a hell of a lot easier when you have a carrier capable of taking 3 tacklers out of the game. That's the simple truth of it and pretending otherwise is just naive.

 

[BPM]

Of course. If Andre Esterhuizen was English he'd be walking in to our team at 12.

One option I don't think I've ever seen mooted is Oscar Beard switching to 12. If Lennox is off, it would make sense for Quins to do it and as a big, physical guy who loves an offload, it strikes me as a potentially good move. Not so much an Esterhuizen clone, more like a Jordie Barrett type.

It's not unfamiliar for him either: https://www.planetrugby.com/news/il...on-hopeful-on-dream-debut-despite-autumn-snub

Moreover, from his POV, it would probably put him right in the frame for England. He's already in the mix as a 13 but as a 12, I think he'd be in the box seat.

 

[Geordie]

Of course. If Andre Esterhuizen was English he'd be walking in to our team at 12.

One option I don't think I've ever seen mooted is Oscar Beard switching to 12. If Lennox is off, it would make sense for Quins to do it and as a big, physical guy who loves an offload, it strikes me as a potentially good move. Not so much an Esterhuizen clone, more like a Jordie Barrett type.

It's not unfamiliar for him either: https://www.planetrugby.com/news/il...on-hopeful-on-dream-debut-despite-autumn-snub

Moreover, from his POV, it would probably put him right in the frame for England. He's already in the mix as a 13 but as a 12, I think he'd be in the box seat.

I rate Beard highly...and as you say has a nice balance of pace, skills and size. Really one to watch.

 

[BPM]

Yeah. I wasn't totally convinced to begin with but this season he's really upped his performance level and consistency. I definitely see him as a future England player now which wasn't always the case.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I rate Beard highly...and as you say has a nice balance of pace, skills and size. Really one to watch.

Is he still growing? T'internet has him anywhere from 1.85 to 1.93.

 

[Geordie]

Is he still growing? T'internet has him anywhere from 1.85 to 1.93.

Ah id say 6'1 and around 16st is probably nearing the right size...

 

[Geordie]

Theres also George Hendy aswell...see how he develops. Pace and size

So there will be options coming through...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Isn't Hendy a bit of a beanpole?
Very rapid but I'd never associate size with him

Edit: same height as Freeman but almost 2 stone lighter

Saints S&C staff are good at stacking muscle on players though so he'll fill out with time

 

[BrokenWing]

There's talk of trying to coax Dominic Young over from league. I assume to play 12.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

When I raised him in the A's thread someone disagreed and raised the same point of a wing playing 12, personally I dont see that, he is as close to a crash ball 12 we have, and always seems to add something to his game every season.

I am a fan, but may be just a prem player, not sure his size or strength would offer the advantage it does domestically internationally.

I have watched Butt play centre for Bath this season without knowing that he used to play wing and he doesn't look out of place at all. He seems to have the game for centre.

 

[Geordie]

Isn't Hendy a bit of a beanpole?
Very rapid but I'd never associate size with him

Edit: same height as Freeman but almost 2 stone lighter

Saints S&C staff are good at stacking muscle on players though so he'll fill out with time

Yeah he'll put some muscle on.

He was just another example of a few lads coming through now with some size AND skills.

The wings are in good shape for the moment though.
Waboso, Sleightholme, Freeman and Roebuck are a good young 4 that can be very good. Others will have to challenge them

 

[Lé Ddanno]

We're stacked in the backrow (1) and the back three (2) but

1 Selections are crazy
2 All they get to do is chase kicks

 

[Which Tyler]

I have watched Butt play centre for Bath this season without knowing that he used to play wing and he doesn't look out of place at all. He seems to have the game for centre.

He was always a centre who could do a job on the wing, rather than the other way around.

He's had a great season, but shouldn't be in the conversation for anything more than filling in for Eng A. He's playing at a level he hasn't really shown before, at the age of 24. He may be a late developer, or he may be going through a purple patch of form above and beyond his "natural" level.
Obviously, I hope for the former, but shouldn't be in any international conversations until we know - or are we REALLY that desperate?

 

[OllyM97]

I see that parasite Sweeney has earned a nice £1.1m for doing an absolutely pathetic job. Nice work if you can get it.

If going 0-5 in the Six Nations led to Borthwick and Sweeney getting the boot, I'd happily take the hit.

 

[BPM]

There's talk of trying to coax Dominic Young over from league. I assume to play 12.

I heard there's definite interest in him but I don't know if the assumption about playing 12 is the right one.

I don't watch much League, but whenever I have seen him play he seems to be an out and out winger. The type of guy who is on the end of moves rather than having to do much passing or work in traffic. His highlight reels pretty much back that up, but I'm happy to be corrected if that's an unfair summary.

 

[BrokenWing]

I heard there's definite interest in him but I don't know if the assumption about playing 12 is the right one.

I don't watch much League, but whenever I have seen him play he seems to be an out and out winger. The type of guy who is on the end of moves rather than having to do much passing or work in traffic. His highlight reels pretty much back that up, but I'm happy to be corrected if that's an unfair summary.

Yeah, I don't know anything about him but heard Chris Ashton mention it and then read a news article saying Borthwick wants him as England's Sua'ali'i… basically cause he's tall.

I was just watching a video of him and you've pretty much summed it up. Some mad finishes mind but nothing that would make him a centre.