England 2024/25

[BPM]

Roebuck might have the physical attributes to play 15 but he doesn't play there. Unless he does so on a regular basis, that's not an option for me.

A couple of decent moments against an inferior side who are already beaten is not enough to demand 'Fin needs to start'. Particularly when he has either looked overwhelmed or anonymous in any of his other cameos.

I actually thought Marcus Smith failed to get the centres and other players into the game. For all the good he did I really don't think he clicked at all in the England team.

Not sure if that's a system thing or just the way he plays. I think it's only fair that F Smith gets a shot in a proper game as he's a brilliant player.

Could it not simply be that Slade and Lawrence were not particularly good? I think it's fair to say he struggled to bring them into the game against NZ (where we didn't really seem to try) or against SA where our pack gave us no platform. Australia was a different game entirely - it started well and theneverything was a mess with 0 structure. The whole take away from yesterday's game seems to be that ONE decent strike move from a lineout proves Fin can do that better? For the Earl's try and for Freeman's disallowed try, Marcus used the centres perfectly well.

I am a big fan of Fin's and I would like to see him get more game time, but inventing a flawed/false narrative to justify dropping Marcus in his favour is quite odd for me.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If we thought F Smith was the next St Jonny then I'd be calling for him to be fast tracked. I don't, although I think he can become very good. Probably also more of an 'English type' player.

Question marks around M Smith gelling with the rest of the team are fair. But he's also playing behind an average pack, the one 9 who might be most on his wavelength is injured and centres remain a perennial problem. He can do things that others simply can't though and we ought to be looking to build a team around him. I do though think it's time to say thanks and goodbye to Ford and let the Smiths battle it out.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Roebuck might have the physical attributes to play 15 but he doesn't play there. Unless he does so on a regular basis, that's not an option for me.

A couple of decent moments against an inferior side who are already beaten is not enough to demand 'Fin needs to start'. Particularly when he has either looked overwhelmed or anonymous in any of his other cameos.


Could it not simply be that Slade and Lawrence were not particularly good? I think it's fair to say he struggled to bring them into the game against NZ (where we didn't really seem to try) or against SA where our pack gave us no platform. Australia was a different game entirely - it started well and theneverything was a mess with 0 structure. The whole take away from yesterday's game seems to be that ONE decent strike move from a lineout proves Fin can do that better? For the Earl's try and for Freeman's disallowed try, Marcus used the centres perfectly well.

I am a big fan of Fin's and I would like to see him get more game time, but inventing a flawed/false narrative to justify dropping Marcus in his favour is quite odd for me.

Not inventing anything. It's obvious that the 10/12/13 isn't working and it's fair to question all parts.

I thought our back play in general was too flat, lacked any guile and didn't attack the right parts of the defence. Again not sure if that's a system thing a Marcus thing or a centres thing but Marcus really didn't gel well with that centre combo.

I also thought JVP was pretty crappy but not sure how much rugby he's played this year. He looked off pace for international rugby though but then a lot of our players did.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Not inventing anything. It's obvious that the 10/12/13 isn't working and it's fair to question all parts.

I thought our back play in general was too flat, lacked any guile and didn't attack the right parts of the defence. Again not sure if that's a system thing a Marcus thing or a centres thing but Marcus really didn't gel well with that centre combo.

I also thought JVP was pretty crappy but not sure how much rugby he's played this year. He looked off pace for international rugby though but then a lot of our players did.

Is it really beyond us to find a big bloke, put 12 on his back and tell him to run hard in a straight line?

Not a panacea, but it would help. Think of Smith and Esterhuizen. When we played the Boks it looked like they had a couple of body builders in midfield. However we get it, we need some midfield punch from somewhere. I read one piece where the journalist wondered if Lawrence is a bit of a flat track bully, and I don't think he's wholly answered that question yet.

 

[BPM]

I don't think it's a case of Lawrence being a flat track bully. He's just being used as a 'power' centre when it's not really his main strength. Bath use him quite differently.

I get that it was a bit of a flippant question, but 'is it beyond us to find a bloke …' doesn't have a simple answer. It's a bit like @higgik wanting Roebuck at 15 because he's tall. He has the size and shape, but we can't just drop him in at 12 and say 'run hard in a straight line'. Hartley is probably the closest to that we have so let's see how he shapes up post-injury.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

My preference but I prefer Lawrence at 13 with a bit of space.

But we are stuck as SB doesn't seem interested in any of the young 12s. It's very odd.

 

[BPM]

I'm not sure that we can say that with any certainty.

With the exception of Seb Atkinson, who should definitely have been in the A squad at the very least, there are good reasons why others probably weren't considered for recent squads.

Hartley's return match after an ACL injury was last week. He simply wasn't an option.

Kelly hasn't really played his way in and has mostly featured at 13.

Woodward is just making his breakthrough this season. Definitely too soon for him.

Wimbush was touted but is injured and hasn't played yet this season.

Anyanwu has only really got a run of games this season and if he's agreed to move to Montpellier at the end of the season it would have been pointless to pick him.

Sammy Arnold is very much an outside shot. I quite like him but probably a bit premature to think of him in the England conversation. Same goes for Will Rigg.

 

[Which Tyler]

Add in Max Ojomoh who played his first match of the season against Bedford this weekend, and is 3rd choice centre at his club (give who's ahead of him, that's more a limit on his game time than a comment on his ability)

 

[BPM]

Worth noting he was included in the A squad despite 0 game time though. He is clearly on the radar.

 

[BPM]

I forgot Will Butt. Same problem as Ojomoh with internal competition at Bath. However, as a hard running 12, he's a potentially interesting option with the added bonus of familiarity with Lawrence.

Picked up a poorly time ban otherwise he might have been in the A squad.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Will Butt

I hope he finds the hole to make his way to international level.

Cracking name.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I didn't realise Butt had played as much centre as he has - in my head he was a winger filling in while Ojomoh/Redpath weren't available, but looks like 12's been his primary position for a couple of seasons

 

[Crash Hamster]

Only up to a point. Things were better last year but even so we still didn't get any finalists. Here are the knockout games involving English clubs and some of the defences were pretty leaky. Saints, previous sinners, largely excepted. And if Toulouse and Leinster are proxies for their national sides, well that's who we're up against.

Round of 16

Exeter 21 Bath 15
Bordeaux 45 Saracens 12
Quins 28 Glasgow 24
Leinster 36 Tigers 22
Saints 24 Munster 14

QF

Toulouse 64 Exeter 26
Bordeaux 41 Quins 42
Saints 59 Bulls 22

SF

Toulouse 38 Quins 26
Leinster 20 Saints 17

Final

N/A

I think the problem is that we don't have a side that is a proxy for the national team at the moment; I guess Salarysins were in the 'no cap' days. Playing in semi-finals against Toulouse and Leinster is a huge experience for our two international fly halves (I'm assuming M. Smith played, pretty certain F. Smith did...)

Then of course there's the 'how do we keep losing to Scotland if they never get a side in the semi-finals?' argument.

Also, I'm comfortable with England shipping a few points if we keep winning entertaining games by at least one score; narrow wins can take you all the way to the RWC.

So two of our sides were good enough to be among the best four sides in Europe; a decent coaching set-up could surely produce an international team greater than the sum of its parts with raw materials like that to work with. The problem seems to be that we're trying to make players selected for their attacking flair into defensive automatons, instead of bolting on some better defensive skills and letting their natural talents shine.

I fear we've been here before under Eddie Jones...

 

[mikebrownsauce1512]

I think the problem is that we don't have a side that is a proxy for the national team at the moment; I guess Salarysins were in the 'no cap' days. Playing in semi-finals against Toulouse and Leinster is a huge experience for our two international fly halves (I'm assuming M. Smith played, pretty certain F. Smith did...)

Then of course there's the 'how do we keep losing to Scotland if they never get a side in the semi-finals?' argument.

Also, I'm comfortable with England shipping a few points if we keep winning entertaining games by at least one score; narrow wins can take you all the way to the RWC.

So two of our sides were good enough to be among the best four sides in Europe; a decent coaching set-up could surely produce an international team greater than the sum of its parts with raw materials like that to work with. The problem seems to be that we're trying to make players selected for their attacking flair into defensive automatons, instead of bolting on some better defensive skills and letting their natural talents shine.

I fear we've been here before under Eddie Jones...

We aren't winning any games though. This year we have beat the worst Wales team in history, Italy by three points, Japan Twice and Ireland. I am not saying sack Borthwick now as we have invested too much time into him and there will be to many financial repercussions, give him the six nations then asses from there. I think the defence is absolutely shocking at the moment and we would benefit from trying to blood some new players. In my opinion we are in desperate need of a world class inside centre like Ma'a Nonu, DDA ETC (to be the glue in a disjointed backline).

 

[BPM]

We are in 'desperate need of a world class inside centre' but it's not like we have one we're just ignoring … I'd just settle for one who is consistently good TBH, they don't have to be world class. We can wish for one but they're not going to magically appear.

Some problems have solutions we can try such as Willis at 8 or switching our defensive system away from the blitz at all costs one. For others, solutions are less apparent or need a different approach.

It feels like we're looking for a big, gainline busting 12. However, in the absence of someone able to perform that role, I think we need to change how we attack. A more subtle game plan might suit the likes of Seb Atkinson better (he's big but he's not a crash ball centre).

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

I would like to call out one of the most ridiculous comments I have heard this week which is the suggestion that England's autumn fixtures were in the wrong order and they should have played Japan first. I am sure all the northern hemisphere teams would have liked to play Japan first but its not possible. Somebody has to play them on the 4th weekend. You cant have Newzealand and South Africa not playing the first weekend just because nobody wants to play them first.
If England had played Japan the first weekend then somebody else would have had to play the allblacks the first weekend. The fixture list doesn't revolve around what suits England best.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think England still have a gameplan that revolves around having a centre the is the same shape, size and attributes as Tuilagi without actually being Tuilagi and we can't seem to ever move away from not having that available (or refuse to pick anyone else who could remotely play like that). Lawrence is a powerful runner but his power is a secondary attribute that helps with his general speed, agility and lines he runs. He can run through players but that's not how he's intended to be played.

England simply have a gameplan for one set of players and then pick a different set of players to play it. It's like there is no connection whatsoever been the selection process and the tactics. This has been a consistent theme for years and it's infuriating.

 

[BrokenWing]

I would like to call out one of the most ridiculous comments I have heard this week which is the suggestion that England's autumn fixtures were in the wrong order and they should have played Japan first. I am sure all the northern hemisphere teams would have liked to play Japan first but its not possible. Somebody has to play them on the 4th weekend. You cant have Newzealand and South Africa not playing the first weekend just because nobody wants to play them first.
If England had played Japan the first weekend then somebody else would have had to play the allblacks the first weekend. The fixture list doesn't revolve around what suits England best.

Saying they were in the wrong order and insisting they were played in a different order are two different things.

In isolation those games were in the wrong order for England to work up into them really. You don't need to consider the feeling of the other teams to state that fact.

 

[Wasps92]

I see that parasite Sweeney has earned a nice £1.1m for doing an absolutely pathetic job. Nice work if you can get it.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think England still have a gameplan that revolves around having a centre the is the same shape, size and attributes as Tuilagi without actually being Tuilagi and we can't seem to ever move away from not having that available (or refuse to pick anyone else who could remotely play like that). Lawrence is a powerful runner but his power is a secondary attribute that helps with his general speed, agility and lines he runs. He can run through players but that's not how he's intended to be played.

England simply have a gameplan for one set of players and then pick a different set of players to play it. It's like there is no connection whatsoever been the selection process and the tactics. This has been a consistent theme for years and it's infuriating.

Even Tuilagi wasn't Tuilagi for the last 10 years of his international career.