England 2024/25

[mikebrownsauce1512]

That's the thing.

We do have a lot of good players, but the international game is about the excellent, not the good.

Suspect NZ and SA also have lots of good back rowers yet the AB's RWC winning back row was the same in 11 and 15 and the Boks likewise in 19 and 23. The Holy Trinity in 03 played together over 40 times. That consistency and understanding matters. Getting the talent ID right in the first place is crucial, but then the unit understanding and experience takes things to the next level. SB needs to identify his men and stick with them. I'd go Chessum, Underhill and CCS. Others will disagree, but the main thing is not to be making it up on the hoof.

Even though things haven't been vintage recently for the ABs they've still largely stuck by their men - Cane's just retired after 100 caps and it won't be long before Savea hits that mark either.

That's just talking about the back rowers, but the same is true of any unit. Heck after 35 caps together even Slade and Lawrence might start to gel.

In my opinion Underhill has to start at 7 every game when he is fit.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Three England players Steve Borthwick should call-up after this weekend - Ruck

The European Champions Cup and Challenge Cup got off to a thrilling start this weekend, with several England hopefuls making a huge impact for their clubs. Join the RUCK’s WhatsApp community…

www.ruck.co.uk

What a joke of an article/website

OUR EXPERT ANALYSIS SUGGESTS STEVE BORTHWICK HAS TO CALL UP THESE PLAYERS
player number one: his first choice 9 who he starts every game and was only out in the autumn because of injury

 

[mikebrownsauce1512]

England XV vs Ireland (if everyone is fit and available)

1- Genge
2- George
3- Stuart
4- Itoje
5- Chessum - offers a bit more athleticism
6- CCS
7- Underhill
8- Earl
9- Mitchell
10- M.Smith
11- Roebuck
12- Atkinson - get him in why not
13- Lawrence
14- IFW
15- Furbank

16- Oghre - feel like he can offer a lot off the bench, Occasional bad dart
17- Baxter
18- Heyes
19- Martin- Power off the bench
20- T. Curry - can cover the whole backrow
21- Spencer - don't see what he did wrong in the autumn
22- F. Smith
23- Freeman

 

[Geordie]

Stuart's a case in point for my subsequent post on continuity.

Not world beating, but the best we have and suddenly looking decent enough. That's after 40+ caps which is actually way overstating his experience as many of those will have been just a few minutes off the bench.

Environment also matters and that is entirely in SB's hands. F Jones cited that as one of the reasons he decided to move on. Is it also any coincidence that we're seeing the best of Stuart now he's playing in a much more successful team and has du Toit to compete with and learn from?

Yes, Stuart has actually shown improvement over the summer, and certainly came out of the AIs with a +. Hopefully he can continue to improve.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Martin is a starter for me no matter what his power in the scrum is massively needed

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Martin is a starter for me no matter what his power in the scrum is massively needed

He didn't have the best autumn but I'd agree with that. And just as importantly he's capable of mood shifting moments in the loose whether with ball in hand or in defence.

Line out's no more than OK and one of the reasons why I think a fit Chessum walks back in at 6.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

England XV vs Ireland (if everyone is fit and available)

1- Genge
2- George
3- Stuart
4- Itoje
5- Chessum - offers a bit more athleticism
6- CCS
7- Underhill
8- Earl
9- Mitchell
10- M.Smith
11- Roebuck
12- Atkinson - get him in why not
13- Lawrence
14- IFW
15- Furbank

16- Oghre - feel like he can offer a lot off the bench, Occasional bad dart
17- Baxter
18- Heyes
19- Martin- Power off the bench
20- T. Curry - can cover the whole backrow
21- Spencer - don't see what he did wrong in the autumn
22- F. Smith
23- Freeman

Can't imagine they will be keen to have three players on EPS contracts not involved at all. Clubs won't want to be resting players under the terms only for them to not be used. And the RFU and Borthwick don't want even more criticsim from clubs. (The new deal gives clubs a reason to brief against Borthwick if they don't like him).

 

[Geordie]

England XV vs Ireland (if everyone is fit and available)

1- Genge
2- George
3- Stuart
4- Itoje
5- Chessum - offers a bit more athleticism
6- CCS
7- Underhill
8- Earl
9- Mitchell
10- M.Smith
11- Roebuck
12- Atkinson - get him in why not
13- Lawrence
14- IFW
15- Furbank

16- Oghre - feel like he can offer a lot off the bench, Occasional bad dart
17- Baxter
18- Heyes
19- Martin- Power off the bench
20- T. Curry - can cover the whole backrow
21- Spencer - don't see what he did wrong in the autumn
22- F. Smith
23- Freeman

Is Chessum going to be fit?
Martin MUST start.
Sleightholme has earned a start. Hes a powerful try scorer
Langdon over Oghre and Cowan Dickie over George.
And what do we do with Slade??

Others
Freeman is a puzzle for me. Didnt have a standout AI but offers so much. Im very much siding with those wanting him to move to 13 now. But is that likely at Saints.
Atkinson is definitely worth look...but i think the summer tour of Argentina for him and Olly Hartley to blood a 12
Pepper and Pollock look outstanding but maybe leave them for the summer tour aswell.
Pearson has recently been playing 6 so could be an interesting move.

 

[mikebrownsauce1512]

Martin is a starter for me no matter what his power in the scrum is massively needed

I rate Martin very highly just didn't really do much this autumn didn't see him melting people in defence which he normal does so well, quality player though.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Sleightholme has earned a start. Hes a powerful try scorer

He is, although he's looked defensively dubious. Not sure whether that's him or the system?

 

[Geordie]

I rate Martin very highly just didn't really do much this autumn didn't see him melting people in defence which he normal does so well, quality player though.

Hes 23. hes still very much learning the ropes at this level...fitness, etc. As mentioned above...at this level so much is about experience and caps. Knowledge, not just ability.

We have a team with a lot of younger players with little experience...who are just going to have to play regularly and gain that experience.

 

[Geordie]

He is, although he's looked defensively dubious. Not sure whether that's him or the system?

Generally hes pretty strong defensively so ill plump for being in his first taste of international rugby against the very best and the "not quite" functioning defensive set up.

The only issue with having Sleightolme and Waboso on the wings is neither have a great kicking game at the moment which is essential these days as back three players. They need to develop that side of their game quickly.

 

[Which Tyler]

What a joke of an article/website

It's Ruck - what else were you expecting?

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Joe Heyes: Leicester Tigers' prop uses 'hurt' to fuel England ambitions

Leicester Tigers prop Joe Heyes is using the "hurt" of being overlooked for an England recall to work even harder on making his international return.

www.bbc.co.uk

REPORT: Sam Underhill linked with shock Bath departure...

...

www.rugby-addict.com

 

[BPM]

Sounds like Heyes being overlooked is actually a decent bit of management. He said there were 'very honest conversations' and judging by his comment starting with 'Instead of just getting by in games' it does suggest he was coasting a bit, but now has the bit between his teeth.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

He is, although he's looked defensively dubious. Not sure whether that's him or the system?

England across the board have atrocious defensive stats, I think our system is just not functioning properly leaving huge gaps and players confused about what they are supposed to be doing.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

How can anyone (especially SB) leave out Freeman? He basically spent the last year for England chasing bloody kicks, competing for high ball and making tackles.

He's not had any space, any decent ball and probably the worst attack inside him for an international team. Freeman for me is a starter over Roebuck and Sleightholme becuase he's a more complete player.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

How can anyone (especially SB) leave out Freeman? He basically spent the last year for England chasing bloody kicks, competing for high ball and making tackles.

He's not had any space, any decent ball and probably the worst attack inside him for an international team. Freeman for me is a starter over Roebuck and Sleightholme becuase he's a more complete player.

I think that's fair. But there's probably also a bit of a counter argument whether he's gone infield looking to make things happen enough as IFW does.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Sounds like Heyes being overlooked is actually a decent bit of management. He said there were 'very honest conversations' and judging by his comment starting with 'Instead of just getting by in games' it does suggest he was coasting a bit, but now has the bit between his teeth.

Not surprised to read that. Heyes has *seemed* visibly bigger this season.

Nothing wrong with a bit of tough love and honesty. But that's easy with fringe players, how ballsy will the coaches be with underperforming big names?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Joe Heyes: Leicester Tigers' prop uses 'hurt' to fuel England ambitions

Leicester Tigers prop Joe Heyes is using the "hurt" of being overlooked for an England recall to work even harder on making his international return.

www.bbc.co.uk

REPORT: Sam Underhill linked with shock Bath departure...

...

www.rugby-addict.com

Would be mighty p*ssed off if Underhill went for the Euros.

But equally wouldn't blame him if he did as SB's sent a raft of signals that he doesn't really rate him. RWC omission, no central contract etc. Plus he'll be 29 next year and with his injury record may not need too much persuading to cash in.