England 2024/25

[TRF_Olyy]

Didn't see it. Was he bad or just quiet?

Quiet and looked weak - completely outplayed and outmuscled by the opposition

Agree that won't have helped, but it would also be stupid to put too much weight on it. Totally scratch team and he's stacking up a decent body of work both in France and now with Sarries….against, I would hazard a guess, better opposition than Aus A.

I think they'll put weight in it tbh - he doesn't look like he's in the top X number of backrowers for an EPS pick so needed to use the opportunity of being in an unfamiliar environment to show he can excel when dropped in
Pollock did, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's ahead of Willis when the 6N rolls around


I'm a big fan of Willis and he'd probably still be my first choice 8 at the 6N, but you can't mess up an opportunity like that, in front of the international coaches, and not have it harm your chances

 

[Geordie]

Guy Pepper clearly now yesterday's man.

ha ha...Pollock is the explosive media darling...but Pepper is the new Ritchie McCaw.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Steve Borthwick Tops Rugby’s Rich List: Outearns Erasmus and Farrell - Ruck

Steve Borthwick has claimed the ***le of the highest-paid rugby coach in the world, solidifying his reputation as one of the sport’s most sought-after tacticians. Join the RUCK’s WhatsApp community here …

www.ruck.co.uk

 

[Geordie]

Steve Borthwick Tops Rugby’s Rich List: Outearns Erasmus and Farrell - Ruck

Steve Borthwick has claimed the ***le of the highest-paid rugby coach in the world, solidifying his reputation as one of the sport’s most sought-after tacticians. Join the RUCK’s WhatsApp community here …

www.ruck.co.uk

Worth every penny

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Quiet and looked weak - completely outplayed and outmuscled by the opposition

I think they'll put weight in it tbh - he doesn't look like he's in the top X number of backrowers for an EPS pick so needed to use the opportunity of being in an unfamiliar environment to show he can excel when dropped in
Pollock did, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's ahead of Willis when the 6N rolls around


I'm a big fan of Willis and he'd probably still be my first choice 8 at the 6N, but you can't mess up an opportunity like that, in front of the international coaches, and not have it harm your chances

Fair enough. Although surprised.

Unless there was something like illness then I can understand the coaches being underwhelmed…..but hopefully they won't knee jerk, just as they shouldn't on the back of one outstanding performance either. Hope he gets the chance to redeem himself in either the full squad or the Ire A match.

 

[Geordie]

Lots of options at back row...

Underhill
Curry x 2
Pollock
Earl
CCS
Pepper
Chessum
Hill
Pearson
Kenningham
T. Willis
Carnduff
(plus others)

If we cant build / develop a balanced back row to match / beat the best in the world from that we have a problem.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Steve Borthwick Tops Rugby’s Rich List: Outearns Erasmus and Farrell - Ruck

Steve Borthwick has claimed the ***le of the highest-paid rugby coach in the world, solidifying his reputation as one of the sport’s most sought-after tacticians. Join the RUCK’s WhatsApp community here …

www.ruck.co.uk

Ehhhhh, people use this as some sort of gotcha or slight but England's HC will always be one of, if not the, highest paid coach in the world simply for the amount of money floating around at Union level

 

[mikebrownsauce1512]

Lots of options at back row...

Underhill
Curry x 2
Pollock
Earl
CCS
Pepper
Chessum
Hill
Pearson
Kenningham
T. Willis
Carnduff
(plus others)

If we cant build / develop a balanced back row to match / beat the best in the world from that we have a problem.

To think we have Jack Willis in France as well. Also ludlam is in France and he was in the rwc 23 squad, an outside shout is Will Evans his club form is incredible just don't think he would be able to make the jump to international level, shame.

 

[Saintjay]

ha ha...Pollock is the explosive media darling...but Pepper is the new Ritchie McCaw.

Pollock vs Pepper. One is like the secret child from a Shelford, Dallaglio, Parisse love triangle.

The other one's just Guy Pepper.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Ehhhhh, people use this as some sort of gotcha or slight but England's HC will always be one of, if not the, highest paid coach in the world simply for the amount of money floating around at Union level

Bit of a jump linking salary to most sought after tacticians.

But this just rehashes a conversation we've had recently. It should be one of the best paid jobs, but with that comes high expectations of immediate impact, results and no excuses. That's just the way the world works.

 

[Which Tyler]

Tight head will be interesting...Stuart starts (for the moment) then Fordjour v Fasogabon v Heyes for the other 2 spots.

Too young, too young, Bingo!

 

[Rugbyfan564]

O'Gara puts England on red alert as he reveals his coaching ambitions

Ronan O'Gara has put England and Ireland on alert after he admitted he has ambitions to work at international level with one of both countries, or France, in the future.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Not seen much evidence of this yet, tbf

if sheet['A1'].value == 'win': pass
elif sheet['A1'].value == 'lose'
sheet['B1'] = random.randint(1, 15)
change name

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Lots of options at back row...

Underhill
Curry x 2
Pollock
Earl
CCS
Pepper
Chessum
Hill
Pearson
Kenningham
T. Willis
Carnduff
(plus others)

If we cant build / develop a balanced back row to match / beat the best in the world from that we have a problem.

Some good players for sure, lots of potential, one or two injury struggles.

Bottom line though - if we want to challenge for 6N / RWC we need to beat the best. How many would Galthie, Robertson, Erasmus or Farrell currently select in a match day 23 over their existing options? How many will even make the Lions trip, let alone start a test?

Not many. Might sound harsh but good back rowers are 10 a penny (even Wales has some) and these are the kind of standards we need to measure by if we want to be right in the mix for ***les.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

On form I'd argue that underhill, Curry and Earl are all top internal back rowers who would be in the lions conversation.

But as with England these days, Curry and Earl haven't been on form for a little bit and then Underhill became out of favour.

The rest all have things to work on or not enough experience and due to our massive player pool it's hard to decide which to invest in. The harsh reality is not all of those will have an England international career although they probably all should.

 

[Geordie]

Some good players for sure, lots of potential, one or two injury struggles.

Bottom line though - if we want to challenge for 6N / RWC we need to beat the best. How many would Galthie, Robertson, Erasmus or Farrell currently select in a match day 23 over their existing options? How many will even make the Lions trip, let alone start a test?

Not many. Might sound harsh but good back rowers are 10 a penny (even Wales has some) and these are the kind of standards we need to measure by if we want to be right in the mix for ***les.

Well Tom Curry, Underhill and Earl at their best are right up there...

But your comments also highlight the state of where England rugby currently is.

Bar one or two seniors (some past it (George) some of whom are broken (T.Curry), and others not amongst the top echelons (Genge, Stuart) ) We have a host of "potential" coming through but still very much a work in progress. Its going to take time.
Even on here we argue about Marcus Smith, George Ford and Fin Smith - who starts, who benches, where does Marcus fit etc etc.

We can rightly blame Borthwick for tactics, selection issues and a lot of things etc etc...but its not his fault we dont have a world beating tighthead, or a world class 12 ...and you can say that for most positions. But there are green shoots every where that that is changing. Unfortunately we're in a position where the team is in rebuild and going to take time for the kids to develop experience and caps.

The fact we're generally keeping much more advanced team within scores is a positive (ignoring performances)

Is Borthwick the right man for that kind of job...well thats another debate...im not able to say.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

On form I'd argue that underhill, Curry and Earl are all top internal back rowers who would be in the lions conversation.

But as with England these days, Curry and Earl haven't been on form for a little bit and then Underhill became out of favour.

The rest all have things to work on or not enough experience and due to our massive player pool it's hard to decide which to invest in. The harsh reality is not all of those will have an England international career although they probably all should.

That's the thing.

We do have a lot of good players, but the international game is about the excellent, not the good.

Suspect NZ and SA also have lots of good back rowers yet the AB's RWC winning back row was the same in 11 and 15 and the Boks likewise in 19 and 23. The Holy Trinity in 03 played together over 40 times. That consistency and understanding matters. Getting the talent ID right in the first place is crucial, but then the unit understanding and experience takes things to the next level. SB needs to identify his men and stick with them. I'd go Chessum, Underhill and CCS. Others will disagree, but the main thing is not to be making it up on the hoof.

Even though things haven't been vintage recently for the ABs they've still largely stuck by their men - Cane's just retired after 100 caps and it won't be long before Savea hits that mark either.

That's just talking about the back rowers, but the same is true of any unit. Heck after 35 caps together even Slade and Lawrence might start to gel.

 

[BPM]

Perhaps, but I'd argue our set-up mainly produces volume rather than quality.

People bang on about the size of our player pool all the time, but it's a bit of a false positive. Looking at that list of back rowers is almost a case in point - we have lots of good ones, some very good ones but few excellent ones.

I think there's a lot to be said for small, highly focused systems as Ireland have. OTOH, France have more top level clubs and produce more outstanding players so it clearly isn't a barrier to quality. I suppose this is where money and structure count. France are nailing it on both fronts and we never have.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

but its not his fault we dont have a world beating tighthead

Stuart's a case in point for my subsequent post on continuity.

Not world beating, but the best we have and suddenly looking decent enough. That's after 40+ caps which is actually way overstating his experience as many of those will have been just a few minutes off the bench.

Environment also matters and that is entirely in SB's hands. F Jones cited that as one of the reasons he decided to move on. Is it also any coincidence that we're seeing the best of Stuart now he's playing in a much more successful team and has du Toit to compete with and learn from?

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Three England players Steve Borthwick should call-up after this weekend - Ruck

The European Champions Cup and Challenge Cup got off to a thrilling start this weekend, with several England hopefuls making a huge impact for their clubs. Join the RUCK’s WhatsApp community…

www.ruck.co.uk