England 2022/23

[Geordie]

Total agree with all of that. West can't be far off an England call up and for me Heyes has come on a lot with the extra game time over the 6 nations period with Cole away. Martin is everything England miss against France.

Spot on.

His development this season has been insane....but hes what England are missing. Along with big Ted....doing the physcial stuff, then you can have Curry etc doing all the more technical work

 

[Geordie]

Might be too early for the WC...but post WC i think SB needs to look at Elliott Obatoyimbo. Full back and wing....hes something different and very talented.

If he was playing like he has been for his previous club Saracens...the cries for his inclusion would be deafening.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tom Curry made 25 tackles, three turnovers and two try assists vs Bristol, (Ben 15 tackles, 2 turnovers and a try in 60mins)

I would genuinely be shocked if we didn't see 6. T.Curry, 7. Willis next time out

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Might be too early for the WC...but post WC i think SB needs to look at Elliott Obatoyimbo. Full back and wing....hes something different and very talented.

If he was playing like he has been for his previous club Saracens...the cries for his inclusion would be deafening.

Eh, maybe
He's very good on attack but his fundamentals need to be better considering how many young fullbacks are coming through at the moment - vs Gloucester he had a 0% tackle completion rate, you can't be that much of a glass cannon at international level
Falcons an unfashionable club for selectors so he needs to be cleaner than clean to really stand out

 

[Geordie]

Eh, maybe
He's very good on attack but his fundamentals need to be better considering how many young fullbacks are coming through at the moment - vs Gloucester he had a 0% tackle completion rate, you can't be that much of a glass cannon at international level
Falcons an unfashionable club for selectors so he needs to be cleaner than clean to really stand out

Well theres a few young full backs...but hes just a very different style to anything else around. His defence is normally solid regardless of those stats...and his aerial game is excellent. Ill be very interested in his development next season under a new set of coaches...

But i would definitely think he should be looked at. Shame the Saxons werent still on the go. These are the players you could look at.

 

[Geordie]

Tom Curry made 25 tackles, three turnovers and two try assists vs Bristol, (Ben 15 tackles, 2 turnovers and a try in 60mins)

I would genuinely be shocked if we didn't see 6. T.Curry, 7. Willis next time out

If Tom is fit, then hes got to start...but he like Itoje has looked jaded in an England shirt. He needs support in there...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I know I say this every weekend but Martin has to go to the RWC.
19 tackles and a try in 64 minutes
He just seems so all round, big hitter in defence but always legal, carrying game is massive as well.

Agree with this - like what I see.

Having seen a couple of Tigers games recently he's barely been used in the line out though. You could probably say the same for Skelton or Willemse but while Martin is a big unit he's not of that magnitude. Is that tactical or is it covering a bit of a weakness, has he been jumping more in other games?

I know he's been playing at lock recently but do you think his future is there or 6? For the international game he strikes me as more of a 6, but he should go to the RWC for sure.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

New season = new thread


View attachment 14638

Don't like the new shirt much tbh

Great choice of models for the pic in the first post in this thread…..highly likely 2 will be out of the scene by going to France while the other is out of the scene without even needing to pick up his passport.

Sadly Umbro seems to be more enduring than our players.

 

[Everyday EggChaser]

Agree with this - like what I see.

Having seen a couple of Tigers games recently he's barely been used in the line out though. You could probably say the same for Skelton or Willemse but while Martin is a big unit he's not of that magnitude. Is that tactical or is it covering a bit of a weakness, has he been jumping more in other games?

I know he's been playing at lock recently but do you think his future is there or 6? For the international game he strikes me as more of a 6, but he should go to the RWC for sure.

I think its more that Henderson and Liebenberg are better options but Martin makes a very capable 3rd.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Tigers POV England players
I know I say this every weekend but Martin has to go to the RWC.
19 tackles and a try in 64 minutes
He just seems so all round, big hitter in defence but always legal, carrying game is massive as well.
Also good to see Kelly back to form, praying it lasts.
Tom West also seems to be a solid LH option, not a world beater but solid like Cole won't win you a game but shouldn't lose it either.
Watson back to his best, not as fast but his control and footwork still top notch.
JVP is either great or poor, all down to his first box kick it seems
Youngs (ducking down now) honestly been in his best form for a long time.
Freddie Steward honestly not been at his best, could argue Brown has been the form Tigers 15.

I still think Cole lost England the 2019 world cup final (along with Eddie Jones ridiculous decision not to pick a spare scrum half in the squad).

 

[Reiser99]

I still think Cole lost England the 2019 world cup final (along with Eddie Jones ridiculous decision not to pick a spare scrum half in the squad).

And I still think it's ridiculous to blame it all on one player.

 

[Geordie]

I still think Cole lost England the 2019 world cup final (along with Eddie Jones ridiculous decision not to pick a spare scrum half in the squad).

And I think it was the fact Jones put our best lock by a country mile on the feckin bench....and also the fact that sinckler went off injured after 3 mins!!!

 

[LIONSxv]

Agree with this - like what I see.

Having seen a couple of Tigers games recently he's barely been used in the line out though. You could probably say the same for Skelton or Willemse but while Martin is a big unit he's not of that magnitude. Is that tactical or is it covering a bit of a weakness, has he been jumping more in other games?

I know he's been playing at lock recently but do you think his future is there or 6? For the international game he strikes me as more of a 6, but he should go to the RWC for sure.

I really hope he isn't used as a 6 . I don't know many successful 6.6 nearly 19 stone sixes. I get he has played at 6 quite a lot, however his weight gain and move to lock should rule that out, at least for England.

He looks to have many great attributes but speed around the ruck and defending the fringes wouldn't be at his size

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I really hope he isn't used as a 6 . I don't know many successful 6.6 nearly 19 stone sixes. I get he has played at 6 quite a lot, however his weight gain and move to lock should rule that out, at least for England.

He looks to have many great attributes but speed around the ruck and defending the fringes wouldn't be at his size

Pieter-Steph du Toit has mixed and matched flanker and lock pretty successfully.

Ollivon and Lawes are both taller. McFarland who was tearing up the Prem pre injury is the same height. You take published weights with a pinch of salt and while Martin is the heaviest of these they all look to be within 4 or 5 kilos. Martin seems to be fairly agile and have a good engine but he's probably more the heavy hitter than the athlete that Lawes etc get badged as.

If Curry's at 7 and Mercer at 8 you've got a shed load of athleticism in the back row already. Slightly against the zeitgeist but there's a good argument for pairing them with a destructive powerhouse rather than adding an identikit 6.

Will partly depend on the lock stocks. A fit Chessum is here to stay and whatever we may think, Itoje is probably likely to get picked until he goes to France or something. There are some big, but totally unproven, locks on their way up.

I wouldn't discount Martin from either position.

 

[Geordie]

Pieter-Steph du Toit has mixed and matched flanker and lock pretty successfully.

Ollivon and Lawes are both taller. McFarland who was tearing up the Prem pre injury is the same height. You take published weights with a pinch of salt and while Martin is the heaviest of these they all look to be within 4 or 5 kilos. Martin seems to be fairly agile and have a good engine but he's probably more the heavy hitter than the athlete that Lawes etc get badged as.

If Curry's at 7 and Mercer at 8 you've got a shed load of athleticism in the back row already. Slightly against the zeitgeist but there's a good argument for pairing them with a destructive powerhouse rather than adding an identikit 6.

Will partly depend on the lock stocks. A fit Chessum is here to stay and whatever we may think, Itoje is probably likely to get picked until he goes to France or something. There are some big, but totally unproven, locks on their way up.

I wouldn't discount Martin from either position.

Ted Hill at 6? And then Martin at lock...gives you two lads who bring huge physicality which you can then balance with Curry and Itoje, Mercer etc provinding the skill and agility.

4 Martin
5 Itoje
6 T. Hill
7 Curry
8 Mercer

Has a nice balance of everything

 

[Which Tyler]

Ted Hill at 6? And then Martin at lock...gives you two lads who bring huge physicality which you can then balance with Curry and Itoje, Mercer etc provinding the skill and agility.

4 Martin
5 Chessum
6 T. Hill
7 Curry
8 Mercer

Then put Itoje and Underhill on the bench, to come on fresh and with a point to prove

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Agree with this - like what I see.

Having seen a couple of Tigers games recently he's barely been used in the line out though. You could probably say the same for Skelton or Willemse but while Martin is a big unit he's not of that magnitude. Is that tactical or is it covering a bit of a weakness, has he been jumping more in other games?

I know he's been playing at lock recently but do you think his future is there or 6? For the international game he strikes me as more of a 6, but he should go to the RWC for sure.

Martin's lineout stats
v Exeter 3/13 joint 2nd most
v Gloucester 2/15 3rd most (off the bench)
v Bath 5/16 2nd most
v Irish 2/7 joint top
v Sarries 4/10 2nd most

So Martin is basically our 2nd jumper behind Liebenberg who is currently the top jumper in the league

 

[LIONSxv]

Pieter-Steph du Toit has mixed and matched flanker and lock pretty successfully.

Ollivon and Lawes are both taller. McFarland who was tearing up the Prem pre injury is the same height. You take published weights with a pinch of salt and while Martin is the heaviest of these they all look to be within 4 or 5 kilos. Martin seems to be fairly agile and have a good engine but he's probably more the heavy hitter than the athlete that Lawes etc get badged as.

If Curry's at 7 and Mercer at 8 you've got a shed load of athleticism in the back row already. Slightly against the zeitgeist but there's a good argument for pairing them with a destructive powerhouse rather than adding an identikit 6.

Will partly depend on the lock stocks. A fit Chessum is here to stay and whatever we may think, Itoje is probably likely to get picked until he goes to France or something. There are some big, but totally unproven, locks on their way up.

I wouldn't discount Martin from either position.

I love Lawes but we look terrible at the breakdown when plays six. I think their was some stats bandied around regarding ruck speed, turnovers etc to back that up. Olivon and PSDT have the height but not the same weight to carry around. Martin is definitely heavier than the 118kg bandied around. He look closer to 125kg imo. A man of that sort of weight is never going to have the same dexterity as a lighter man.
If you want to go down the route of a bigger 6 then look no further than ted hill.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

He look closer to 125kg imo. A man of that sort of weight is never going to have the same dexterity as a lighter man.

There was a very recent article where Borthwick (I think?) said he's currently 121. Looks about right to me.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

There was a very recent article where Borthwick (I think?) said he's currently 121. Looks about right to me.

Lawes is listed at 115, Ollivon 114 and PSDT 120 so in old money there's about a stone in it. For guys of that size that's not much and relative speed / flexibility are going to be determined more by genetics and fast twitch fibre make up than purely what the scales say.

The breakdown's obviously important and someone closer to the ground will have an inherent advantage. But there's more to flank play than that and I wouldn't discount bigger flankers per se. And what's more important, number of involvements or number of impactful involvements? Would we have fared any better with a more powerful unit at 6 v Fra where Ludlam and Willis came off 2nd best?

If we want a big 6, Ted Hill has his fans but the jury's still out as far as many are concerned.

We could see a rejuvenated Underhill and Pearson's likely to get right in to the mix as a big and physical 7.

One thing's clear. We should soon be seeing a much more physical and skilled back 5 and hallelujah to that!