[COVID-19] General Discussion

[RedruthRFC]

My understanding is that is not how it works, in terms of the data stored on your phone is sent a centralised database and doesn't just reside on your phone (there was a technical document that went out but I've only read what tech journalists have said on it, I'm not reading it I have to do my real job).

Having just watched the video that The_Blindside posted above (and assuming it's correct), it appears that the way of operating that I guessed that the NHS's app follows is actually how the Apple / Google model works. As you say, the NSH app is based upon a centralised model, feeding data back and forth when it's able - something that would not be possible if Hancock's claim was true.

Having explained this stuff in the past to non-technical people I can understand how Hancock even though being a bright fella might have got the wrong end of the stick on that one. Doesn't make it inherently bad or nefarious but the bottom line is data is being stored in a centralised database somewhere at some point in cycle. At that point it becomes important to understand who has access and what are legitimate means of using the data.

I was going to add a caveat regarding Hancock's level of understanding to my previous post, but ending up submitting it in a rush and didn't. I don't see why you're being so charitable to Hancock though. He would have been well briefed prior to the announcement of the beta and would have had opportunities to ask questions to clarify things before making categorical, misleading statements. Irrespective of whether his misinformation was given in good faith or not, when the lie is exposed, it will undermine confidence in the project and damage its effectiveness accordingly.

 

[RedruthRFC]

That still rules me out, I don't have any data, so unless it keeps it on the phone, and sends it next time I'm on WiFi, then even if I turn Bluetooth on (and remember to bring the phone with me) it wouldn't be terribly useful

You appear determined to find a reason that this isn't for you, so no doubt you will. Regarding the two excuses you offer, the data storeage requirement for each interaction is minimal, you could easily spend your day riding a tube train back and forth and have plenty of spare room spare for the rest of the week by the time you next connect to wifi. I've found that the best way to avoid forgetting to turn Bluetooth on is not turning it off! Doing this and carrying a phone doesn't seem like a big sacrifice to make to me.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Has anyone heard much about apps from other contries? It strikes me that a lot depends on how effectively the app is able to assess the danger of each interaction, but it strikes me that particularly if contact tracing goes deep and if those whose danger level is high enough for testing to be advised are told to isolate until declared clear, this will shut down half the shops in the country within a few days and have knock on effects to other essential services.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Has anyone heard much about apps from other contries? It strikes me that a lot depends on how effectively the app is able to assess the danger of each interaction, but it strikes me that particularly if contact tracing goes deep and if those whose danger level is high enough for testing to be advised are told to isolate until declared clear, this will shut down half the shops in the country within a few days and have knock on effects to other essential services.

we have one in Aus, there appeared to be loads of opposition reported in the media and on the socials...but over 1M downloaded it in the first 24 hours

it sounds very similar to whats been mentioned here, bluetooth proximity as the main thing hence having to keep it on and open

i do hope they havent all built their own, surely we have shared the tech

 

[RedruthRFC]

we have one in Aus, there appeared to be loads of opposition reported in the media and on the socials...but over 1M downloaded it in the first 24 hours

Have the effects of the app been reported? Given the massively lower infection rates, you'd be unlucky to have personal experience, but it would be interesting to hear if your media have reported cases that it has identified.

i do hope they havent all built their own, surely we have shared the tech

It seems like that is exactly what has happened. At best, we seem to have needlessly reinvented the wheel, at worst it's jobs for the boys in developing the app and / or a plot to capture our data as we descend in to a dystopia.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i havent seen anything reported yet, i'll look around

 

[Which Tyler]

You appear determined to find a reason that this isn't for you, so no doubt you will.

Sorry - I didn't realise I needed an "excuse".

I do not trust the people behind this app - therefore I will not be using it - regardless of anything else.
That I only use my phone for the making of phone calls, texting my mum, reading of books of listening to music is ultimately irrelevant - I won't be using this app because I don't trust the people behind it. If I did use it, I would have to work out a bunch of features I've never need to use before, like data and possible GPS.

Data storage usage may be minimal, but as a percentage of the data I've used my phone for, it would be an infinite increase. ETA - sorry, I see you answered my question in a hidden way - it stores data and uplaods it via wifi - in which case, I probably can manage that.

Leaving blueooth on runs out my battery in about 90 minutes - and I doubt that it's that simple, as having bluetooth on, and bluetooth visible to other devices are different things (and presumably different levels of resource hogging)

This may be completely alien to you, but there are people in the world who are not wedded to their phones - I have no need to apologise for this, nor any need to make any excuses.

Oh, and before you ask - my current phone cost about £60, and is 4-5 years old - it does me fine.


FTR - I have no problem with downloading an app and keeping bluetooth turned on (only when walking the dog would I be out for long enough to kill the battery). There are a few off-the-shelf apps already available, some made by competent people with lots of experience in developing apps. We chose not to do that though, and Dominic Cummings decided to give his mate from Cambridge Analytica a bunch of money to get some of his old team of spyware designers to make an app.
If I trusted the team behind the app, I'd be happy to download it, and do what I could to make it work properly.

 

[Amiga500]

I see trump is gonna wind down the coronavirus taskforce.

Job well done, give yourself a wee pat on the back there Donald.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I see trump is gonna wind down the coronavirus taskforce.

Job well done, give yourself a wee pat on the back there Donald.

Treated worse than Lincoln according to him. Yeah Lincoln who got shot and killed at Ford's Theatre.

And get this - the reason why he didn't fill up the "empty cupboards left by him by the Obama administration", which hasn't been in office for 3 and half years is because he was busy and his time was taken up by Russia, Russia, Russia and Ukraine, Ukraine.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

https://nowthisnews.com/news/3-russ...atients-have-fallen-out-of-windows-in-2-weeks

Russian doctors who have raised complaints about the Coronavirus all now seem to be "falling out of windows". Basically state sponsored assassination of any dissenters. Russia is rapidly shooting to the top of Coronavirus cases and the state is acting like it's still the good old days of the USSR.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Sorry - I didn't realise I needed an "excuse".

I do not trust the people behind this app - therefore I will not be using it - regardless of anything else.
That I only use my phone for the making of phone calls, texting my mum, reading of books of listening to music is ultimately irrelevant - I won't be using this app because I don't trust the people behind it. If I did use it, I would have to work out a bunch of features I've never need to use before, like data and possible GPS.

Data storage usage may be minimal, but as a percentage of the data I've used my phone for, it would be an infinite increase. ETA - sorry, I see you answered my question in a hidden way - it stores data and uplaods it via wifi - in which case, I probably can manage that.

Leaving blueooth on runs out my battery in about 90 minutes - and I doubt that it's that simple, as having bluetooth on, and bluetooth visible to other devices are different things (and presumably different levels of resource hogging)

This may be completely alien to you, but there are people in the world who are not wedded to their phones - I have no need to apologise for this, nor any need to make any excuses.

Oh, and before you ask - my current phone cost about £60, and is 4-5 years old - it does me fine.


FTR - I have no problem with downloading an app and keeping bluetooth turned on (only when walking the dog would I be out for long enough to kill the battery). There are a few off-the-shelf apps already available, some made by competent people with lots of experience in developing apps. We chose not to do that though, and Dominic Cummings decided to give his mate from Cambridge Analytica a bunch of money to get some of his old team of spyware designers to make an app.
If I trusted the team behind the app, I'd be happy to download it, and do what I could to make it work properly.

fair play if you dont trust people, you just listed things like data and memory etc rather than just saying you dont trust them and so wont do it...so it did sound like excuses, own your distrust

 

[Which Tyler]

fair play if you dont trust people, you just listed things like data and memory etc rather than just saying you dont trust them and so wont do it...so it did sound like excuses, own your distrust

My very first comment was that I don't trust the people or the data they seem to be mining. I owned my distrust from the very beginning.

My other points were all "besides... X Y Z" and none of them were "excuses"
A phone app absolutely IS useless if you leave your phone in the living room.
A phone app absolutely IS useless IF it requires a data connection that doesn't exist.
A phone app isn't terribly useful if it requires a bluetooth connection that can't be used as intended.

All of them, from the very start, have been very much secondar points to my initial "this is Dominic Cummings' idea, and put together by the team behind Cambridge Analytica, when there was an off-the-shelf option already available"

 

[Kiwiwomble]

My very first comment was that I don't trust the people or the data they seem to be mining. I owned my distrust from the very beginning.

My other points were all "besides... X Y Z" and none of them were "excuses"
A phone app absolutely IS useless if you leave your phone in the living room.
A phone app absolutely IS useless IF it requires a data connection that doesn't exist.
A phone app isn't terribly useful if it requires a bluetooth connection that can't be used as intended.

All of them, from the very start, have been very much secondar points to my initial "this is Dominic Cummings' idea, and put together by the team behind Cambridge Analytica, when there was an off-the-shelf option already available"

this may be the case for you and thats fine but you are the exception in the western world, even my 76 mum has data on her phone and enough to do video calls

maybe just accept that just because something doesn't work for you, for a variety of reasons doesn't mean its not good

 

[Which Tyler]

Given that I never claimed that my problems exist for anyone else; and were purely "me personally" and "my phone" - I never extrapolated to anybody else at all* - I really don't know why you have your knickers in a twist about all of this.

Your complaint seems to be that I didn't say exactly what I said.
Sometimes, I feel that reading the things someone has written might help to work out what that person might have meant to write.


* The closest I got to that is to claim that I'm not the only person in the world who isn't wedded to their phone.

 

[Which Tyler]

But being used to model the type of stuff Cambridge Analytica were up to I'm less keen on.

This is the problem - added to the fact that Dominic Cummings is the BJ's chief advisor...

And personally - I rarely remember to take my phone with me (and never have the GPS activated), so I doubt I'd add anything useful to data; but that's just me.

Yes, which doesn't help if my phone's in the kitchen and I'm on Morrisons.
Nor would it know, if my phone's in my pocket, with GPS switched off.

That still rules me out, I don't have any data, so unless it keeps it on the phone, and sends it next time I'm on WiFi, then even if I turn Bluetooth on (and remember to bring the phone with me) it wouldn't be terribly useful

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Meanwhile, in new Zealand we have had just 3 new cases confirmed in the last 4 days.

potentially going down to alert level 2 in a week, with rugby training starting up for three weeks then a super rugby comp that could include a pacific island team.

it's hard to know what will happen if numbers start increasing again, of course.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

This is a question I posed on this thread a few weeks ago about do we give up our own privacy for the greater public good. This question needs answering now if this contact tracing app is to be effective.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

This is a question I posed on this thread a few weeks ago about do we give up our own privacy for the greater public good. This question needs answering now if this contact tracing app is to be effective.

speaking personally, i have nothing to hide and try not to let something like principle get in the way of addressing a clear and present physical danger, pride wont make my loved ones feel better if they contract COVID

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well, In South Africa anyone who has a cellphone, is automatically being tracked. The issue is though the people in the rural areas, not many of them have cellphones, so it's hard to track their movement.

It's now week 5 of the lockdown here in SA, and we went down to level 4 last Friday. But I have to say, my town hasn't really changed in the past few weeks with regard to the absence of traffic in the streets and people at the shops.

With that said, we've had 20 cases of people testing positive, and 19 of them already recovered. And the other one is still in isolation at the local hospital.

I really can't see why the entire country has to enforce these harsh lockdown criteria, when some regions, that's more than 300km's away from the epicentres and hasn't had a new case in the past 3 weeks, can't be lifted to a lower status individually.

 

[The Seeker]

Something to share while on Covid 19 Stay At Home order. A map of how the USA is divided into regions for the census. We have a census every ten years.

https://www2.census.gov/geo/pdfs/maps-data/maps/reference/us_regdiv.pdf