Cheetahs and Kings to join "Pro 14"

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

TBH that seems to be alot of English fans mentality to this but not mine. Not sure why either as most of the time it is from people who don't even watch the Pro 12, eggchasers are the same.

The biggest issue with the cross Continental comps is time zone and this shouldn't have that problem.

Pro 12 fans are excited SA fans are really excited why not.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I have to be honest it took me a while to figure out how they come to 21 games per team but I have it now. The solution of the Italian, Scots and SA teams playing an additional derby game seems simple enough.

I have develped a fear of conferences over these last two years but I would compare this format favorably to the S15. And in S15 the format wasn't broken yet and this one has a lot more going for it;
1) every team plays every other at least once whereas in S15 you'd miss one team from each of the other conferences,
2) there are 2 conferences as opposed to 3,
3) they are comprised of teams from each nation rather than each nation on its own to compensate for probable disparities in relative strengths and then lastly
4) played in the same time zone (near enough) which IMO > same hemisphere

21 Matches is rough though when you consider we are used to 15 per season for SR. I suppose the Cheetahs will be forced t sacrifice their CC campaign although they are going at it full tilt ATM. Maybe hoping to come into the Pro14 match fit seeing as there is a decent amount of rest on the cards soon enough and the tournament is played in patches. I wouldn't know.

I wouldn't expect either SA team to be doing terribly well off the bat though; player rotations, no real break between SR and Pro14 and culture (rugby-wise)- and climate shock are probably to translate into early season losses I'd expect. I'm still excited to see how it plays out and whether there is a real win-win opportunity to make a move en-masse.

 

[SomeOke]

If the Kings were completely unchanged I'd give them a good chance, without Cronje and Cloete though they will be weakened. Hopefully they don't embarrass themselves, I don't know much about the level of Rabo 12 rugby.
Obviously the big dogs are very strong (Ulster etc) what's the difference between them and the middling/bottom teams?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

If the Kings were completely unchanged I'd give them a good chance, without Cronje and Cloete though they will be weakened. Hopefully they don't embarrass themselves, I don't know much about the level of Rabo 12 rugby.
Obviously the big dogs are very strong (Ulster etc) what's the difference between them and the middling/bottom teams?

As a rule in recent years. Top7 or 8 are fairly competitive. Bottom 4 are dire and very detached. Of the Of the bottok

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Cross border's one thing, cross continental quite another.

The format feels convoluted. Don't like the conference system and some teams playing each other 3 times in 21 games smacks of Scottish football.

Don't know why I'm getting so exercised about this, I seldom watch much of it anyway.

If Pro12 can't get more TV money then it would quickly resemble Scottish, Welsh and Irish club football in the last 20 years, with few if any domestic international players plying their trade there.

With more TV money it may continue to be world leading, like Scottish club football from the 60s and 80s.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

There is a video explaining how the strength of conferences is balanced:



Conference A will always be
Wales 2&3
Scotland 1
Ireland 1&4
Italy 2
South Africa 1

Conference B
Wales 1&4
Scotland 2
Ireland 2&3
Italy 1
South Africa 2

Not sure why Kings are ranked lower than Cheetahs after being much better in Super Rugby. They probably will be the poorer team having lost Mapimpi, Cronje and Cloete, so that might work out.

Overall I'm impressed. I think they have come up with a better compromise than I could have. It's rare for me to say that about anything rugby administrators have a hand in.

Conference B may be a bit routine for Leinster and Scarlets but will be a dogfight for 3rd.

Conference A will just be a dogfight full stop. Other than bankrupt Zebre (please preserve their dignity!) you could almost shuffle the other 6 sides.

The outstanding issue for me are:

i) Currie Cup - now fighting for relevance against both the Top League of Japan and the Pro12.

ii) unbalanced matches during the 6N. This will be particularly pronounced if a full strength SA at home entertains a Scottish or Italian side with most of their first team on international duties. Hopefully they have worked out to make the 6N weeks the time for SA vs Wales/Ireland in Europe to minimise that issue.

 

[mosfeldt]

If the Kings were completely unchanged I'd give them a good chance, without Cronje and Cloete though they will be weakened. Hopefully they don't embarrass themselves, I don't know much about the level of Rabo 12 rugby.
Obviously the big dogs are very strong (Ulster etc) what's the difference between them and the middling/bottom teams?

As bruce says the top 8 or so are pretty competitive - in the past 7 years 6 different teams have won it! I was gutted when Munster were thrashed by Scarlets in the final this year but I knew it was a great result for rugby. Anyway Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Scarlets, Ospreys and Glasgow would be the strongest teams of the Pro12 (Scarlets, Munster and Leinster strongest atm). After that, Edinburgh, Cardiff Blues and Connacht have their own sort of tier, capable of playing some fine rugby but wracked by inconsistency and choking to pressure. Then Newport Dragons, Treviso and Zebre... the matches I tend to skip. This has more or less been the Pro12 hierarchy of the past decade or so. I am so excited to see the Saffas shake it up, I know they'll probably be a bit of a dud for the first year or two but given how strong South African rugby is and their frequent exposure to NZ rugby I expect them to be top tier teams once they've matured.

Though I could be completely wrong. Who the f**k knows? Hyped!

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Rhule is reportedly moving from the Cheetahs to the Stormers, with rumours that Mohoje and Petersen may follow suit. Has somebody been tipping these guys off about the "Celtic" weather?

It seems that Pro12 have failed in their efforts to get assurances from the SARU that the strength of the two teams would be retained prior to the new season. I make that arguably the three best players on each side have either moved, or are strongly rumoured to be moving (at least Mapimpi is moving from Kings to Cheetahs).

I can see the Cheetahs getting stomped in Conference A if they don't retain some of their leaders & Boks. It's a bit of a shame but it sounds like the Kings and Cheetahs losing their best players is nothing new.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Rhule is reportedly moving from the Cheetahs to the Stormers, with rumours that Mohoje and Petersen may follow suit. Has somebody been tipping these guys off about the "Celtic" weather?

It seems that Pro12 have failed in their efforts to get assurances from the SARU that the strength of the two teams would be retained prior to the new season. I make that arguably the three best players on each side have either moved, or are strongly rumoured to be moving (at least Mapimpi is moving from Kings to Cheetahs).

I can see the Cheetahs getting stomped in Conference A if they don't retain some of their leaders & Boks. It's a bit of a shame but it sounds like the Kings and Cheetahs losing their best players is nothing new.

Kings will be hitting a down turn. Cronje, Cloete and Mapimpi aren't just exactly their three best players but two of them in critical positions and Mapimpi is just electric.

I expect the Cheetahs to be one up from their SR form however;
Rhule is overrated IMO. Mapimpi is more electric and despite Rhule's greater experience I don't rate his basics as having developed. Typical of us Stormers to sign over the hill wings from other unions rather than backing our own rising star who move off (we've signed Bjorn Basson at the end of his career FFS). Add to Mapimpi coming in the inclusion of Cecil Africa to the Cheetahs to offset a potential move from Petersen. Those are like for like replacements and IMO would rather lean towards an upgrade than a downgrade. Mohoje is also overrated IMO. Shouldn't have gotten a sniff for the Bokke. Their captain and VC have been retained. The Cheetahs were hamstrug with injuries during SR. Expect them to in at around that 3rd Conference A spot if I am any judge. They are at max points in Currie Cup at played 2, 2 bonus point wins against Sharks and WP. WP is a lot poorer side than SR (Stormers I mean) ATM but the Sharks aren't too far off their SR side.

 

[unrated]

Kings will be hitting a down turn. Cronje, Cloete and Mapimpi aren't just exactly their three best players but two of them in critical positions and Mapimpi is just electric.

I expect the Cheetahs to be one up from their SR form however;
Rhule is overrated IMO. Mapimpi is more electric and despite Rhule's greater experience I don't rate his basics as having developed. Typical of us Stormers to sign over the hill wings from other unions rather than backing our own rising star who move off (we've signed Bjorn Basson at the end of his career FFS). Add to Mapimpi coming in the inclusion of Cecil Africa to the Cheetahs to offset a potential move from Petersen. Those are like for like replacements and IMO would rather lean towards an upgrade than a downgrade. Mohoje is also overrated IMO. Shouldn't have gotten a sniff for the Bokke. Their captain and VC have been retained. The Cheetahs were hamstrug with injuries during SR. Expect them to in at around that 3rd Conference A spot if I am any judge. They are at max points in Currie Cup at played 2, 2 bonus point wins against Sharks and WP. WP is a lot poorer side than SR (Stormers I mean) ATM but the Sharks aren't too far off their SR side.

Yea they beat the Sharks in the Currie cup this year but that was before we got our Super rugby players back as we were still competing in the quarters. In the game after that we got the Super rugby players back into the Cc side and destroyed the Pumas.

But yes they are a very good side currently they just need to hang on to their best player which we know does not happen. This is where the Pro 14 can hopefully help the Cheetahs hold on to their best players and if not then atleast secure the contracts of more players than in the past.

They must be smart and sign up the Free agents such as Goosen.

 

[munstermuffin]

I have to be honest it took me a while to figure out how they come to 21 games per team but I have it now. The solution of the Italian, Scots and SA teams playing an additional derby game seems simple enough.

I have develped a fear of conferences over these last two years but I would compare this format favorably to the S15. And in S15 the format wasn't broken yet and this one has a lot more going for it;
1) every team plays every other at least once whereas in S15 you'd miss one team from each of the other conferences,
2) there are 2 conferences as opposed to 3,
3) they are comprised of teams from each nation rather than each nation on its own to compensate for probable disparities in relative strengths and then lastly
4) played in the same time zone (near enough) which IMO > same hemisphere

21 Matches is rough though when you consider we are used to 15 per season for SR. I suppose the Cheetahs will be forced t sacrifice their CC campaign although they are going at it full tilt ATM. Maybe hoping to come into the Pro14 match fit seeing as there is a decent amount of rest on the cards soon enough and the tournament is played in patches. I wouldn't know.

I wouldn't expect either SA team to be doing terribly well off the bat though; player rotations, no real break between SR and Pro14 and culture (rugby-wise)- and climate shock are probably to translate into early season losses I'd expect. I'm still excited to see how it plays out and whether there is a real win-win opportunity to make a move en-masse.

But you won't have 21 games at same level as S15. Remember also it'll mean ye will develop a larger squad naturally and it will be very beneficial and rewarding in year or 2.

Pro Rugby here nailed it perfect in how you treat the teams playing in South Africa. Every team will have 5 full days without travel before games. I know every Irish province is very happy with the detailed effort and planning.

Also I think it's great for us as out teams will learn a lot and as I've said already it's really made it a fun tournament with every game being meaningful in a way

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Sport24 article (which you can take to the bank usually) reporting that the Kings and Cheetahs joining the Pro(14) is set to be announced on Saturday.

NZ Herald opinion piece on the other hand calling for the Sharks to drop out of SR to spare Aussie and make for conferences in NZ x 5, Aussie x 5 and SA x 3 alongside Arg and Japan each with 1 to make up 3 conferences of 5. The gall of this bloke. So the Bulls, Stormers and Lions to travel to and fro Japan and Argentina. The Stormers have already this year had the craziest touring schedule imaginable going to Buenos Aires and back to SA, to NZ and back to SA and to Singapore and back to SA. All the while touring back and forth across SA which isn't a tiny country. I have to say I am getting tired of the moanings of our Australasian 'partners'. My opinion piece would be let SARU drop SR next year all together (broadcasters can sue SANZAAR) and focus on developing the Currie Cup into a product in line with the likes of the Pro12, Premiership and Top14 and see if we can't get on board Europe which makes a lot more sense on a lot more bases for us and also European Rugby; bigger market and our teams will be more competitive than the likes of Italian etc sides to make the ECC and affiliated competitions a better rugby product and more marketable at the only disadvantage of 6 more hours of flight per tour.

Is the piece you're talking about this?: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11890153

Because he suggests that the Sharks may choose to drop out, based on a rumour. At no point does he suggest they should drop out in order to spare the Aussies.

The Sharks are not sold on the idea of reverting to round-robin play because they would be forced to travel to New Zealand and play some of those teams after avoiding that schedule this year.

They feel a change of plans to link up with rugby tournaments in Europe may be a better fit for their players, their sponsors and also an improved timeframe for their television audience. Under the South African Rugby Union rules, players involved with clubs in Europe are not banned from representing the Boks.

Far-fetched, fanciful or implausible? Maybe but so was the four conference expansion to 18 teams and nobody thought a referee would change his mind in a rugby test either. Apparently no one near the helm of the Australian Rugby Union saw any significant impediments in trimming one of their franchises.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yea they beat the Sharks in the Currie cup this year but that was before we got our Super rugby players back as we were still competing in the quarters. In the game after that we got the Super rugby players back into the Cc side and destroyed the Pumas.

But yes they are a very good side currently they just need to hang on to their best player which we know does not happen. This is where the Pro 14 can hopefully help the Cheetahs hold on to their best players and if not then atleast secure the contracts of more players than in the past.

They must be smart and sign up the Free agents such as Goosen.

I think the signings will start by next week. My suspicion is that most of the current squad will remain as the bulk of the team, the 7's players will not be part of the PRO14 group, and will just play Currie Cup, and then open up spots for other players to be signed on.

I think the guys that should be on the Cheetahs shopping list should be:
Johan Goosen
Franco v/d Merwe
Bismarck Du Plessis
Heinrich Brussouw
Ashley Johnson
Willie Le Roux

Now I know most of these guys have contracts in NH, but they are all part of the Cheetahs alumni (except Franco)...
Goosen is "retired" and in SA. Franco's contract hasn't been renewed and is basically a free agent.

Another guy that springs to mind is Ruan Pienaar, who is also retired. He can't play for Ulster anymore, but why not get him to return to the Cheetahs. His experience of playing in Ireland will be a massive attribute to have.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What would have been if not for Brussouws injuries.
Can't see Johnson, Le Roux Pienaar or BDP leaving all on big money.

Goosen alone though would completely change Cheeyahs prospects IMO.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Oh, @TRF_heineken ..

You know what you just did.. you are forcing me to put up a Cheetahs alumni XV;

1 Coenie Oosthuizen
2 Bismarck du Plessis / Adriaan Strauss / Ashley Johnson
3 WP Nel / Trevor Nyakane

4 Flip van der Merwe
5 Lood de Jager
6 Heinrich Brussow
7 Juan Smith
8 Duane Vermeulen / Uzair Cassiem

9 Ruan Pienaar
10 Johan Goosen

11 Lionel Mapoe / Raymond Rhule
12 Frans Steyn / Rob Ebersohn
13 Francois Venter / Philip Snyman
14 Sergeal Petersen / Cornel Hendricks
15 Willie le Roux / Riaan Viljoen

Come to think on it Riaan Viljoen might be a good one to hunt. I don't know where Ebersohn is but the Cheetahs were playing good rugby in 2013 with 9 Pretorius, 10 Goosen, 12 Ebersohn, 13 Sadie and with Strauss, De Jager, Labuschagne and Van der Walt in the forwards.

Is the piece you're talking about this?: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11890153

Because he suggests that the Sharks may choose to drop out, based on a rumour. At no point does he suggest they should drop out in order to spare the Aussies.

Semantics. I doubt he called up the Sharks CEO and backroom staff for an interview. It certainly doesn't read that way. He may choose to go love himself.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I see Marnitz Boshoff has been released from his contract with Connaught based on a mutual agreement, due to the loss of his father.

He's another prospect for the Cheetahs...

@TRF_stormer2010 , I thought it might get you up... Except Duane Vermeulen started his career at the Lions before going to the Cheetahs...

Anyway, I forgot about Frans Steyn... I wonder if he'll be interested... He has been in SA for a long time now...

 

[GarethGriffiths]

Not sure I can see this being a good thing.

If we're going to expand from 12-14 then include an extra region in Wales for the 'Gogs' (North Wales Crusaders, playing out of Parc Eirias) and Scottish Highlands (Aberdeen/Inverness). Or bring back a border region and maybe they can ground-share with Motherwell or Hamilton Academicals.

Can't see it continuing after this season.

 

[munstermuffin]

Not sure I can see this being a good thing.

If we're going to expand from 12-14 then include an extra region in Wales for the 'Gogs' (North Wales Crusaders, playing out of Parc Eirias) and Scottish Highlands (Aberdeen/Inverness). Or bring back a border region and maybe they can ground-share with Motherwell or Hamilton Academicals.

Can't see it continuing after this season.

Being fair.
Welsh Regions can't afford another region and wouldn't have the quality. The same with Scottish team. Financially and playing terms they wouldn't last.

On South Africans. I can see this being very successful and that excellent planning means this will be successful. This season I think will have teething issues for SA teams trying to juggle no real off season but next season on they will be better for it.

 

[dullonien]

Being fair.
Welsh Regions can't afford another region and wouldn't have the quality. The same with Scottish team. Financially and playing terms they wouldn't last.

On South Africans. I can see this being very successful and that excellent planning means this will be successful. This season I think will have teething issues for SA teams trying to juggle no real off season but next season on they will be better for it.

Yup agree there. Wales cannot sustain another region at the moment no matter how much I'd like to see North Wales represented. RGC have made massive strides recently, but they would get battered by the Pro level teams, as shown by the battering they took from a 3rd choice Welsh side in the summer.

Scotland the same.

the expansion into SA is also for financial reasons, not just for the sake of adding more teams. Sa have a population of 65m, with rugby their primary sport, that's a huge market. I also wonder whether the Pro14 could generate more money for the SA sides than SR, in which case could we see SA's best players slowly migrate from Bulls etc? Would it even be tempting in the future for SA to pull out of SR entirely and enter all their sides a Pro league?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Edinburgh coach Cockerill even alluded to France and England trying to muscle in on the South Africans if it was a success in the Pro14.