Cheetahs and Kings to join "Pro 14"

[Gavin]

I read somewhere that the Lions and Sharks ha e written to the SARU asking to join a Northern Hemisphere competition

 

[profitius]

Thats from the times I think.

The Giraffes have also sent a raven to SARU headquarters. They're looking to come north.

 

[munstermuffin]

Was talking to a SARU member who is over here. Was in camp with us yesterday chatting with Rassie etc. But I asked him about the 2 teams coming to join Pro14. He reckons all the rest want it becuase of all the sense it makes financially and marketability. He said while the week in week out standard drops a bit the facts were that if the Cheetahs and Kings project is successful then the rest would want to come also. And the gap financially that could be created would mean there would be serious pressure too.

 

[SomeOke]

I think eventually (and it might take a while, 10 years plus) club rugby in South Africa will move North. It just makes more sense in terms of time zones / money / travel, it's a real shame as I think we'll lose something if we don't play the kiwi teams at all, but sadly Super Rugby is a bit of a logistical nightmare (we watch Australian games early on a Saturday morning, and Kiwi's and Aussies basically can't watch their teams play in SA), Australia already doesn't want us and ultimately money decides everything these days.

 

[User1245]

I agree that South African presence in Super Rugby is probably going to come an end in the next decade or so. With SA teams going to Europe/Britain and the Aussies & Kiwis (and maybe Japan?) forming their own thing. If the Aussies don't get their ducks in a row with growing the game it's going to leave the Kiwis in a pickle financially and they'll probably try make sure Japan is part some how.

To be honest I'm not too fazed about not playing the Kiwis week in and week out. Give me proof that this has been beneficial for SA rugby? Yes it was in amatuer era but we had success against the Kiwis before Super Rugby existed. I mean this in the best possible way but we don't need them to improve our standard of rugby. In fact, in the pass couple of years it's been the likes of the B&I Lions/Ireland/England who have stood up to the All Blacks the best.

 

[saulan]

I agree that South African presence in Super Rugby is probably going to come an end in the next decade or so. With SA teams going to Europe/Britain and the Aussies & Kiwis (and maybe Japan?) forming their own thing. If the Aussies don't get their ducks in a row with growing the game it's going to leave the Kiwis in a pickle financially and they'll probably try make sure Japan is part some how.

To be honest I'm not too fazed about not playing the Kiwis week in and week out. Give me proof that this has been beneficial for SA rugby? Yes it was in amatuer era but we had success against the Kiwis before Super Rugby existed. I mean this in the best possible way but we don't need them to improve our standard of rugby. In fact, in the pass couple of years it's been the likes of the B&I Lions/Ireland/England who have stood up to the All Blacks the best.

I kinda agree with this, yes it is a shame if in the future we aren't playing against the New Zealand sides in Super Rugby, but as long as we are playing against NZ in the Rugby Championship, I'm happy. In all honesty, the thought that playing against the NZ sides making sure we are competitive is dated. That was good for when we could retain our players, but financially we can't anymore. What will make us more competitive against NZ nowadays is being able to retain our players when they are at their prime, and that means more money is required, which means playing in Europe. I didn't fully realize how many prime players were in Europe (I knew there were a lot but...) until I saw that Ulster side last night... Ludik, Diack, Deysel, Herbert, Van Der Merwe and Coetzee all from SA. I know not all the teams have this many, but spread across 60 teams in Europe, that's a huge impact.

We will be better when we can keep these players and can benefit from their prime play.

Also, I think there were a lot of South Africans watching last night, I definitely believe the Pro 14 will see a nice bump in viewership from adding SA sides, even in games where SA teams aren't playing.

Edit: Just counted, 22 SA players in the Pro 14 in other squads. 37 players in the Premiership. 13 players in the Championship. 52 players in the Top 14 and then 18 players in the Pro D2.

In total, 142 players in the NH, or just over 6 match day squads.

 

[TRF_heineken]

It was definitely not a good start for the Cheetahs or the Kings to the Pro14. Although, I thought both teams played rather well in their first halves respectively. But there are obvious things that stood out for me that these teams should work on:

Cheetahs:

• Need a fly half. Clayton Blommetjies is not a flyhalf and it showed. Cecil Afrika is only good in that channel on attack, and when there's space
• Need a more reliable kicker. William Small-Smith kicked at goal for them, and was dire.
• Defence Defence Defence

Kings:

• Tight Forwards need to work harder and better together
• Need to work on contesting for the ball in the air
• Defence Defence Defence

I think this was an eye-opener for all of us down here. I think we forgot how differently the referees are in the NH to the SH, and you could see that the players were confused by a lot of the calls made in the games.

Both these teams look great when they attack, but their defence were just awful. In the Kings game the commentator commended the Kings on their Scramble defence before half time, but their structures were so poor from the start, that they put themselves under way too much pressure. They didn't even have pillars around the rucks to keep an eye on the scrumhalf.

 

[Amiga500]

Need a more reliable kicker. William Small-Smith kicked at goal for them, and was dire.

Bit harsh.

He royally f**ked the first one. But after that, nailed some pretty difficult ones - any misses were of kicks even a 80%er wouldn't assure you of.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Bit harsh.

He royally f**ked the first one. But after that, nailed some pretty difficult ones - any misses were of kicks even a 80%er wouldn't assure you of.

Perhaps, but their tactical kicking was even worse than at goal.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Where have the flyhalves the Cheetahs used in Super Rugby gone? Google suggests Niel Marais and Fred Zielinga, neither of whom are in the touring squad.

It's Munster next up for them. It's not going to get any easier as they are strong even without their internationals.

On the refereeing I think there has been a change from last season, plus they are really setting out their stall early. There were multiple quick penalty tries and yellow cards for isolated offences and I wasn't seeing that last year. I'd be surprised if the English and French leagues are being officiated as strictly.

The Pro14 is very proud of its USP of having the most "positive play" statistics of any league (NH only?) and I think this refereeing is an attempt to consolidate that. Any offence that restricts a dangerous attacking move with momentum may result in a yellow. Anything that prevents a very likely scoring opportunity may be a penalty try.

Offending must cost your team more than not offending in order to discourage it. Hopefully, like the high tackle enforcement, it'll settle down as players and coaches adapt. I think it might assist the Cheetahs and Kings a bit to be honest.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Where have the flyhalves the Cheetahs used in Super Rugby gone? Google suggests Niel Marais and Fred Zielinga, neither of whom are in the touring squad.

It's Munster next up for them. It's not going to get any easier as they are strong even without their internationals.

On the refereeing I think there has been a change from last season, plus they are really setting out their stall early. There were multiple quick penalty tries and yellow cards for isolated offences and I wasn't seeing that last year. I'd be surprised if the English and French leagues are being officiated as strictly.

The Pro14 is very proud of its USP of having the most "positive play" statistics of any league (NH only?) and I think this refereeing is an attempt to consolidate that. Any offence that restricts a dangerous attacking move with momentum may result in a yellow. Anything that prevents a very likely scoring opportunity may be a penalty try.

Offending must cost your team more than not offending in order to discourage it. Hopefully, like the high tackle enforcement, it'll settle down as players and coaches adapt. I think it might assist the Cheetahs and Kings a bit to be honest.

They are both out injured. Niel Marais was in a car accident and is still recovering from the injuries.

Both of them have been ruled out for a couple of weeks and didn't form part of the first touring squad for the Pro14.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

They are both out injured. Niel Marais was in a car accident and is still recovering from the injuries.

Both of them have been ruled out for a couple of weeks and didn't form part of the first touring squad for the Pro14.

Thanks. Well, that explains a fair bit in terms of the level of their performance. Glad to hear they aren't playing in the Currie Cup.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

It was definitely not a good start for the Cheetahs or the Kings to the Pro14. Although, I thought both teams played rather well in their first halves respectively. But there are obvious things that stood out for me that these teams should work on:

Cheetahs:

• Need a fly half. Clayton Blommetjies is not a flyhalf and it showed. Cecil Afrika is only good in that channel on attack, and when there's space
• Need a more reliable kicker. William Small-Smith kicked at goal for them, and was dire.
• Defence Defence Defence

Kings:

• Tight Forwards need to work harder and better together
• Need to work on contesting for the ball in the air
• Defence Defence Defence

I think this was an eye-opener for all of us down here. I think we forgot how differently the referees are in the NH to the SH, and you could see that the players were confused by a lot of the calls made in the games.

Both these teams look great when they attack, but their defence were just awful. In the Kings game the commentator commended the Kings on their Scramble defence before half time, but their structures were so poor from the start, that they put themselves under way too much pressure. They didn't even have pillars around the rucks to keep an eye on the scrumhalf.

I think the main one you point out is the referees. And particularly play at the ruck. How many times did the Cheetahs lose possession at the ruck in prime position. It was terrible. A lot of those I was expecting a penalty for the Cheetahs for Ulster tackler not releasing or a player lying on the wrong side when the 'steal' is being made but they were pinged for holding on. Also, the Cheetahs couldn't manage one turn over on the deck which is where they are dangerous from. I don't think the ref was being bias as much as our teams just need to adapt to different interpretations. There is a reason Euro teams attack the ruck in numbers and defend their own rucks en-masse. Also and I picked this up in the Top 14 as well it seems going off feet and sealing at the ruck isn't blown up in the Northern hemisphere for the attacking side to retain possession? We should cotton on. Looks like yellow cards are also handed out at a drop. You don't see the Cheetahs get two yellows in one game often. WHo knows though. Maybe this game was a bit of an abbarition. I only managed to watch the Cheetahs game. They will be my weekly minimum though I'll try and catch the Kings, Ulster (SA 3 LOL) and Munster (I like Stander and Cloete) when I don't have anything else on.

I think we can safely say the Euro sides are highly competitive. The old argument of "we must keep testing ourselves vs the snipstruise (kiwis)" doesn't hold up any more. Sure, the Cheetahs and Kings aren't our best and are ravaged as is but still. It just makes a lot more sense for SA to join Europe if we are welcome. Time zone, more money/market and we can compare our local players and players in Euro teams on an apple to apple basis (and hopefully be in a better position to retain the services of those players in our own teams looking ahead but more importantly for the Bokke).

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think the main one you point out is the referees. And particularly play at the ruck. How many times did the Cheetahs lose possession at the ruck in prime position. It was terrible. A lot of those I was expecting a penalty for the Cheetahs for Ulster tackler not releasing or a player lying on the wrong side when the 'steal' is being made but they were pinged for holding on. Also, the Cheetahs couldn't manage one turn over on the deck which is where they are dangerous from. I don't think the ref was being bias as much as our teams just need to adapt to different interpretations. There is a reason Euro teams attack the ruck in numbers and defend their own rucks en-masse. Also and I picked this up in the Top 14 as well it seems going off feet and sealing at the ruck isn't blown up in the Northern hemisphere for the attacking side to retain possession? We should cotton on. Looks like yellow cards are also handed out at a drop. You don't see the Cheetahs get two yellows in one game often. WHo knows though. Maybe this game was a bit of an abbarition. I only managed to watch the Cheetahs game. They will be my weekly minimum though I'll try and catch the Kings and Ulster (SA 3 LOL) when I don't have anything else on.

I think we can safely say the Euro sides are highly competitive. The old argument of "we must keep testing ourselves vs the snipstruise (kiwis)" doesn't hold up any more. Sure, the Cheetahs and Kings aren't our best and are ravaged as is but still. It just makes a lot more sense for SA to join Europe if we are welcome. Time zone, more money/market and we can compare our local players and players in Euro teams on an apple to apple basis (and hopefully be in a better position to retain the services of those players in our own teams looking ahead but more importantly for the Bokke).

Yeah, the going off feet at ruck time was something that was the most mind-blowing to me, the Ulster players just kept on diving in at the rucks, and the ref just ignored it continued the play. Also the thing that bothered me a lot as well is the assisted tackler not being penalised for not releasing the player when attempting to steal the ball.

But yeah, it doesn't help we nit-pick here. The teams just need to adapt to the interpretations, and get on with it.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Two games were officiated by South Africans I think. Hopefully their presence can help communicating differences to the Kings and Cheetahs coaches.

 

[Amiga500]

Yeah, the going off feet at ruck time was something that was the most mind-blowing to me, the Ulster players just kept on diving in at the rucks,

If you aren't blatant about it (Coetzee got off big time with one about ~30 mins in) - then the refs will tend to give the attacking team a decent bit of leeway to generate quick ball.

Although any contact of clearing player's shoulder to defending player's head is liable to result in swift and harsh sanction.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Two games were officiated by South Africans I think. Hopefully their presence can help communicating differences to the Kings and Cheetahs coaches.

I hope so. I also hope the likes of Erasmus and others with experience in the comp can assist our coaches with info on what to expect as the onus will be on our teams to adapt and it does look like there is a big need to change approach.

If you aren't blatant about it (Coetzee got off big time with one about ~30 mins in) - then the refs will tend to give the attacking team a decent bit of leeway to generate quick ball.

Although any contact of clearing player's shoulder to defending player's head is liable to result in swift and harsh sanction.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking how the hell is that allowed with Coetzee flying in there clearly not binding.

 

[Sixways Cheryl]

If nothing else it's added a bit of intrigue to the Pro12/Pro14 for people who don't usually follow the league too closely. First thing I did when checking results was go straight to Kings & Cheetahs and I'm sure I wasn't the only one.

Hope the experiment works out, obviously makes a lot of sense with the time zones.

 

[profitius]

I hope so. I also hope the likes of Erasmus and others with experience in the comp can assist our coaches with info on what to expect as the onus will be on our teams to adapt and it does look like there is a big need to change approach.



Thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking how the hell is that allowed with Coetzee flying in there clearly not binding.

Franco Smith spent many seasons in Italy so he'll know what to expect. Rassie will go back to SA armed with a lot of info on all the teams. That should help the kings and cheetahs.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Franco Smith spent many seasons in Italy so he'll know what to expect. Rassie will go back to SA armed with a lot of info on all the teams. That should help the kings and cheetahs.

Franco Smith isn't coaching the Cheetahs at the moment though. He's with the Springboks as their backline coach. The current head coach for the Cheetahs is Rory Duncan...