Champions Cup - Pool 4, Round 4 (Bath, Glasgow, Montpellier, Toulouse)

[Patchey]

I've been really keen for him to be a back row, but after seeing those attempted jackles!

He needs a lot more time, and I'm sure he will get it. Problem is there isn't much A league rugby for him to learn the game in at the moment and the next LV rounds are a while off. Maybe a few weeks just on the training pitch would do him good.

Regardless. Uninspiring win from Bath, but they keep their hopes alive. Auterac looks to be a hell of a siging.

 

[goodNumber10]

I've been really keen for him to be a back row, but after seeing those attempted jackles!

He needs a lot more time, and I'm sure he will get it. Problem is there isn't much A league rugby for him to learn the game in at the moment and the next LV rounds are a while off. Maybe a few weeks just on the training pitch would do him good.

Regardless. Uninspiring win from Bath, but they keep their hopes alive. Auterac looks to be a hell of a siging.

next game is on Monday, next one after that the 29th.... he could have 160 minutes of un-pressured rugby under his belt by January then start coming off the bench if he was ready to do so. I don't want to be too hard but he really has no clue what he's doing on that pitch and we talking about professional rugby.

Infact the more i think about it the more respect i'm losing for Ford and co as each game goes bye.

Auterac has turned out to be a phenomenal signing for them. Is he capped?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That he was checking to see if his surgery scars had re-opened, early on, suggests he probably isn't fully ready yet...

 

[TommiG88]

He did ok on his first start but he doesn't have the game for 12. He has the potential to be a top back rower in my opinion.

As mentioned above, he's been rushed in too quickly. He should be playing for the reserves learning the trade of a back rower from the start.

 

[Patchey]

As a Blues fan, I watched Benji Marshall's transition to union be ruined in a similar fashion. I think Burgess has much more staying power than Marshall, but even so, if this happens again next weekend we should be worried.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

They've got Gloucester next week, haven't they?

I imagine they'll go back to starting Eastmond, but have Burgess on the bench - will be up against Twelvetrees, if so, one of his "rivals" for the England 12 shirt...

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ford said he'd be back on the bench next week and playing in the A game after that.

TBH looking at the comments in this thread today I'm not quite sure what you guys were/are expecting?

He's getting game time so he can actually put into practice the things he's been doing in training - today was the only high-ish level game that we were going to be able to risk playing him in for a good while.
Believe it or not, the CC is not our priority - the prem is.

For mine - he got a lot more out of playing today than he would have done not playing. He got a decent amount of experience of the fundamental differences in carrying and tackling, and a good number of ruck involvements, along with a better understanding of the flow of this game.
I don't know how much A-league you guys watch, but it isn't high quality, and the players he will be playing with are not in a position to mentor him in the same way the senior squad guys are.

And again - he isn't being played at 12 because that's where the coaches think he is best suited, the coaches think he's a back rower.

 

[goodNumber10]

TBH looking at the comments in this thread today I'm not quite sure what you guys were/are expecting?

He's getting game time so he can actually put into practice the things he's been doing in training - today was the only high-ish level game that we were going to be able to risk playing him in for a good while.
Believe it or not, the CC is not our priority - the prem is.

For mine - he got a lot more out of playing today than he would have done not playing. He got a decent amount of experience of the fundamental differences in carrying and tackling, and a good number of ruck involvements, along with a better understanding of the flow of this game.
I don't know how much A-league you guys watch, but it isn't high quality, and the players he will be playing with are not in a position to mentor him in the same way the senior squad guys are.

And again - he isn't being played at 12 because that's where the coaches think he is best suited, the coaches think he's a back rower.

which would be a very valid argument if bath had played anything like a game plan that was about bringing him into the game and using those things he has learnt.

Regardless, I don't think people were expecting as pish a performance as we got, it's all very well saying CC isn't our priority and what did you expect but people pay good money to watch pro-rugby and should rightly expect to see pro quality rugby, not some experiment - he's either ready or he's not and on todays viewing he's no where near ready for this level of union.

I really disagree that he will have learnt anything today, the A league will give him time to put into practice what he has learnt in a less intense environment chucking him in today just puts him under pressure and will not allow him to get his mechanics at the technical areas right.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The things he has learnt aren't tactical they are fundamental - carrying the ball 6 times and tackling 13 times will have allowed him to put the technical things he's been taught into practice.

I think we watched a different game. According to you Bath didn't put in a pro quality performance, yet beat another pro team by 20 points...

You genuinely think he is literally no better off having played his first ever full game of union?

 

[TheSaffycen]

Did anyone notice that 12 for Bath ? Burgess I think his name was, just the commentary didn't seem to pick up on him...
Some stats for his first start ( http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/237193.html )
He made 7 meters....No clean breaks, no defenders beaten and gave away 2 penalties. Not the most impressive stats but then as Rats said what did people think would happen.
IMO he should have just started at 6 if that is what Bath see him playing as, Bath before admitted that they were wrong to put Eastmond on the wing when they knew he was better somewhere else. This game showed some good points though, his choke tackling is very impressive, his one on one tackling leaves a lot to be desired, his running is not brilliant really. He may have been covered by 3 guys every time but Mont could do this as they knew the ball would die with him each time. But was he told not to try to much stuff ? Anyway the RWC is so out of reach it looks like so what's the point of rushing him. Let him spend time learning his craft and by 2016 he should be in the England team.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Bath before admitted that they were wrong to put Eastmond on the wing when they knew he was better somewhere else.

No they didn't... they admitted they kept him there too long.

 

[goodNumber10]

The things he has learnt aren't tactical they are fundamental - carrying the ball 6 times and tackling 13 times will have allowed him to put the technical things he's been taught into practice.

I think we watched a different game. According to you Bath didn't put in a pro quality performance, yet beat another pro team by 20 points...

You genuinely think he is literally no better off having played his first ever full game of union?

I didn't say tactical, i said technical.

Do actually you think Bath played well today mate? Bath did indeed put 20 points on A weak disheveled Montpellier side that's literally falling apart at the seams, coaches offering resignation and so on....yet look at how that scoring came - two very dubious trys, and they scored 15 points in the first 15 minutes and then abandoned all semblance of a game plan chasing a bonus point that they'd have had a lot sooner if they'd just kept their structure.

I'm not saying he isn't better off, thought i do think that's questionable, but I'm saying he'd have got more benefit from a lower level game before being chucked in at the deep end in a position they aren't going to keep him in, but that in itself is a different discussion.

Did anyone notice that 12 for Bath ? Burgess I think his name was, just the commentary didn't seem to pick up on him...
Some stats for his first start ( http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/237193.html )
He made 7 meters....No clean breaks, no defenders beaten and gave away 2 penalties. Not the most impressive stats but then as Rats said what did people think would happen.
IMO he should have just started at 6 if that is what Bath see him playing as, Bath before admitted that they were wrong to put Eastmond on the wing when they knew he was better somewhere else. This game showed some good points though, his choke tackling is very impressive, his one on one tackling leaves a lot to be desired, his running is not brilliant really. He may have been covered by 3 guys every time but Mont could do this as they knew the ball would die with him each time. But was he told not to try to much stuff ? Anyway the RWC is so out of reach it looks like so what's the point of rushing him. Let him spend time learning his craft and by 2016 he should be in the England team.

I agree with all of this, but we should also point out he was the second highest tackler - they were just mainly unnecessary tackles.

 

[Wendigo7]

Think some of you need to calm down a bit tonight personally.

I saw a bloody decent performance from a guy in his first ever start and he looked keen as hell.

He made some very telling contributions. Blasted through the ruck to set up the bath last try. He smashed an opposite number into touch, won a penalty for a cracking tackle on Alex Tulou but best of all he's making choke tackles. He won 2 fantastic turnovers doing so. A good 6/10 for most. By the way it was his first game .... Doing the full 80.

It isn't his fault he's been out through holes and been tackled quite well and often Montpeiller went in numbers and won penalties by isolating. Happened on 2 occasions. That really isn't his fault he's been asked to do a job and then isn't supported for it. It also isn't his fault he was used as a decoy the majority of the time, probably because he's a big lad who was marked quite well tonight by Ouedrogo who I thought was MOM but also because they haven't had time to work on many plays with him.

He had 5 weeks from the NRL final to the first prem game, about the average atm for most internationals so it's a half decent period of rest. He'll need to protect the ball in contact a lot more now, in league you don't really try to dislodge until the tackle is completed, obviously different to here and he'll need to loosen to the idea that having the ball in space means ball in hand, not the 6th of a final set with a grubber through.

I think he will have learned a fair amount.

Baths problems came from being stuffed up front all game, starved of possession and some of Fords kicking being too loose. They got there and it was a slog but Montpeiller actually played quite well.

Some seriously harsh stuff being said in here and I just wanted to put another perspective on the table.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You said they didn't have a game plan that allowed him to practice what he has been doing in training - yet he made 17 tackles, was heavily involved in a handful of choke tackles and had 7 carries and hit plenty of rucks.
He also got a lot of experience of the far more lateral union backline.
That's plenty of practice in my mind.

We got a bonus point, as opposed to last week where we failed to do so with an utterly dominant scrum and the opposition had three men in the bin.
The performance was alright - I've seen far, far worse.

 

[goodNumber10]

i don't' think anyone is being harsh on, or even critiscising, Burgess. I think people are saying Bath are doing him no favours by playing him in a position he will not end up playing, or playing him so early and it showed tonight.

yet he made 17 tackles, was heavily involved in a handful of choke tackles and had 7 carries and hit plenty of rucks.

As you know Stat's don't tell you everything, and a lot of those 17 tackles had little worth in the overall game there were a few occasions where he would have been better off hanging out and defending on the next phase. It's a league mentality complete the tackle....

He also got a lot of experience of the far more lateral union backline.
That's plenty of practice in my mind.

ok, well we disagree. i think they are going to drag his progress out needlessly, and i honestly think it's because the marketing men want him in the squad.

 

[Wendigo7]

Thorn was similar. Think he started backrow moved to lock ... Eastmond Wing to Centre, Farrell 12 to 6.

I saw a lot of promising stuff. Frustrated yes but Montpeiller were spirited tonight and Ouedrogo was bloody good. For what it's worth he's definitely an 8 or a 6. Skillset seems very obvious for that and it may come in time. I think Ford seems to think playing and giving him game time is the best way to learn and he's trying to find games to reciprocate what he's being taught in the easiest way. He may also feel A League just isn't suitable for him and so easier matches are a better way to learn with the main side.

My favourite moment of the night was completing the choke tackle. He looked absolutely chuffed with himself and it was nice to see. He'll stay for the long haul, I don't think he's the type of person to just jump ship, you only need to look at his RL and personal life to see this.

First hit out wasn't bad all things considered the times he did interact.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think he's the type of person to just jump ship, you only need to look at his RL and personal life to see this.

You mean like when he left Bradford, while still in contract, for the Bunnies?

I agree, though - he'll see this through.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Where did you see that he had a release clause in his contract - it's the first I've heard of it.

 

[Wendigo7]

Bradford he left partially to prove himself in the NRL and partly the dad issue. You can't blame the lad for that really.

Rats - he doesn't have a release clause at all. WHAT is in the contract is rabbitohs have a first offer if he chooses to go back to league at any point, that's the only thing I was aware of.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I was told it by an rfl community coach - could just have a chip on his shoulder about the whole thing though, he's not the biggest union fan.