Can Premiership beat Top 14? In economic terms

[smartcooky]

Most people receive their TV via the internet now anyway, and as a reulst get Canal+ with it.

Really? I don't know anyone who gets their TV via the internet. Everyone I know in NZ gets their TV delivered by satellite dish; either Sky or Freeview

The only time I watch TV on the internet is when watching rugby on iSky when the others in the family want to watch a movie that clashes with it, but I still have to be signed up to SkyTV to be able to do that.


ETA: Actually I do watch SOME overseas sport on internet TV, but the rules here forbid public explanation of how I do that...


you can PM me if you want to know more

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think he's talking about internet tv services as opposed to watching a tv channel on the computer.
The tv tuner just receives the data via the internet - not via satellite or cable - they still sit down on a sofa in front of the tv.

 

[goodNumber10]

I think he's talking about internet tv services as opposed to watching a tv channel on the computer.
The tv tuner just receives the data via the internet - not via satellite or cable - they still sit down on a sofa in front of the tv.

yep, this.

 

[Jaguares]

I was looking for another reason why the Top 14 is bigger than Premiership and I thought that maybe the French cities with rugby tradition are bigger than English cities with rugby tradition. So I made ​​a list with some English and French cities with rugby tradition and with few exceptions, French cities with rugby tradition are bigger than English cities with rugby tradition.

French cities with rugby tradition:

Toulouse 449,328
Lyon 484,344
Montpellier 287,351
Burdeaux 235,178
Toulon 166,537
Clermont 143,000

English cities with rugby tradition:

Bristol 432,500
Leicester 329,600
Northampton 212,500
Gloucester 121,900
Exeter 117,773
Bath 94,782

What do u think?

Cheers

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ok... I'm not sure how much more clearly I can make this point - FOOTBALL IS MASSIVE HERE.
There... that is why the TOP 14 has been able to grow more than the Premiership.

Total annual domestic league attendance figures:

England (Scotland/UK)

Premier League: 13,653,908
Championship: 9,637,771
League 1: 3,496,189
(SPL: 3,160,414)
League 2: 2,422,913
RL Super League: 2,191,700
FA Cup: 1,885,740
Aviva Premiership: 1,697,177

France

Ligue 1: 7,299,737
Ligue 2: 3,212,364
Top 14: 2,249,373

Now do you see why it's harder for Premiership clubs to grow?

 

[TheSaffycen]

Ok... I'm not sure how much more clearly I can make this point - FOOTBALL IS MASSIVE HERE.
There... that is why the TOP 14 has been able to grow more than the Premiership.

Total annual domestic league attendance figures:

England (Scotland/UK)

Premier League: 13,653,908
Championship: 9,637,771
League 1: 3,496,189
(SPL: 3,160,414)
League 2: 2,422,913
RL Super League: 2,191,700
FA Cup: 1,885,740
Aviva Premiership: 1,697,177

While I agree with you, attendances is kind of a hard one as there are 12 Aviva teams (6 games) against Championship/League 1/League 2 which has 24 teams in them (12 games) so they are always going to have higher attendances.

 

[Jaguares]

Ok... I'm not sure how much more clearly I can make this point - FOOTBALL IS MASSIVE HERE.
There... that is why the TOP 14 has been able to grow more than the Premiership.

Total annual domestic league attendance figures:

England (Scotland/UK)

Premier League: 13,653,908
Championship: 9,637,771
League 1: 3,496,189
(SPL: 3,160,414)
League 2: 2,422,913
RL Super League: 2,191,700
FA Cup: 1,885,740
Aviva Premiership: 1,697,177

France

Ligue 1: 7,299,737
Ligue 2: 3,212,364
Top 14: 2,249,373

Now do you see why it's harder for Premiership clubs to grow?

I know, in Argentina is the same. That's what I said, rugby in France is bigger compared to rugby in England. No need to be angry about that.

 

[ratsapprentice]

While I agree with you, attendances is kind of a hard one as there are 12 Aviva teams (6 games) against Championship/League 1/League 2 which has 24 teams in them (12 games) so they are always going to have higher attendances.

Meh, I have a hard time believing most teams would be able to maintain their current average attendance if the length of the season was doubled...
So the total attendance is the correct figure to compare IMO.

If the football leagues were truncated then those fans would (statistically speaking) potentially filter into the rugby attendances.

 

[j'nuh]

While I agree with you, attendances is kind of a hard one as there are 12 Aviva teams (6 games) against Championship/League 1/League 2 which has 24 teams in them (12 games) so they are always going to have higher attendances.

This. Going by that list again:

Premier League: 380 games.
Championship: 557 games. (24*46/2 + 5)
League 1: 557 games.
League 2: 557 games.
Super League: 198 games.
FA Cup: At least 123 games (more after including rematches and the qualifying rounds).
Aviva Premiership: 135 games.

Aviva Premiership avg attendance = 1, 687, 177 / 135 = 12, 497
Top 14 avg attendance = 2, 249, 373 / 187 = 12, 028

The Premiership attendances are inflated a little more because of the Wembley games and such. But as you can see, there really isn't that big a disparity.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You're missing the point - there are 2,372 football games that people can go to instead of the rugby.

The average attendance doesn't really matter - it's about supply and demand - in France the demand for sport is less but is shared more evenly between football and rugby.
Over here, although there is a greater demand for sport - football (and SL) provides a huge number of games for people to go to instead of the rugby.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Another thing that is not in the equation, the travelling distance, in Blighty apart from Newcastle and Exeter, everybody else is not that far away, eg our derby game Montpellier v USAP is over 2/3 hrs, next season are nearest will be Toulon if USAP go down. The team fly to several games.
Can be expensive for fans travelling to away games as long distances + hotel, food expenses make for a costly weekend.

 

[j'nuh]

You're missing the point - there are 2,372 football games that people can go to instead of the rugby.

The average attendance doesn't really matter - it's about supply and demand - in France the demand for sport is less but is shared more evenly between football and rugby.
Over here, although there is a greater demand for sport - football (and SL) provides a huge number of games for people to go to instead of the rugby.

Yes but the point is that the extra attendance is being generated by the extra games. Tacking four more games onto the end of the Premiership season to bring it in line with the Top14 would bring the total attendance a lot closer to the Top14 figure, but it wouldn't mean a significant increase in fans following the game (apart from the extra fans following the two promoted teams), it would just mean an inflated figure from the same people attending four more games.

Swindon Town (football) average ~8120 fans per game. Their cumulative attendance over a season would be ~187,000. Gloucester (rugby) average ~14,000 fans per game. Their cumulative attendance would be ~154,000. For me, there's more interest in Gloucester due to the higher number of unique fans.

Also, consider how attendances might be affected by TV audiences. A lot more Premiership fans will engage with rugby via TV, than Championship/League One/League Two fans would, due to the lack of coverage of lower league football. Factor in the number of people who "attend" rugby games via TV compared to the other leagues, and I suspect that the Aviva Premiership would get a big boost in the number of followers, compared to the football leagues (excluding the Premier League).

 

[ratsapprentice]

Okay then - remove all football leagues except for the most elite one (ligue 1 and the EPL) and league Super League in there.

The Aviva has to compete with two leagues with a combined live attendance of 16 million.
The TOP14 has to compete with one league with a live attendance of 7,299,737.

Also, consider how attendances might be affected by TV audiences. A lot more Premiership fans will engage with rugby via TV, than Championship/League One/League Two fans would, due to the lack of coverage of lower league football. Factor in the number of people who "attend" rugby games via TV compared to the other leagues, and I suspect that the Aviva Premiership would get a big boost in the number of followers, compared to the football leagues (excluding the Premier League).

That's exactly my point, dude - in England there are a huge number of people watching football instead of Rugby.
If they weren't already watching football then they would probably find a different sport to occupy themselves with - but seeing as though they are supplied a large amount of football to watch (either live or on tv) they don't have any need for Rugby.

 

[SimonG]

The point j'nuh makes about average attendance is a valid one. There is very little in it between France and England. Both also face a similar problem of the sport largely being restricted to one area. Southern England, Southwest France. Football dwarfs Rugby in France so stating they are shared more "evenly" in comparison to England doesn't mean much. Top 14 figures are bloated by attendance in one region.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The point j'nuh makes about average attendance is a valid one. There is very little in it between France and England. Both also face a similar problem of the sport largely being restricted to one area. Southern England, Southwest France. Football dwarfs Rugby in France so stating they are shared more "evenly" in comparison to England doesn't mean much. Top 14 figures are bloated by attendance in one region.

I don't know how you can say that when the top league in England has near enough double the annual attendance of France's.
I'm not arguing about which league is bigger - I'm pointing out that we have a significantly more competitive sporting market.

 

[j'nuh]

Don't forget the popularity of tennis, handball, motor racing and cycling in France.

 

[gaston le gaff]

TOP 14 FIGURES ARE BLOATED BY ONE REGION !!!!!!!!!!!

how is rugby attendances bloated by one region, there are several regions where attendances are excellent and a lot more than the Premiership and the Celts, Clermont 18,000, Bordeaux 15-20000 when they play at the footie club (often) Toulouse 16/17000, Toulon 14/15000, Montpellier 11/12,000 thats five different regions i could add Grenoble Oyonnax that makes 7 different regions so where do you get you bloated by one region from!!!!!!!!! Even La Rochelle Pro D2 gets around 11/12,000 ON average per season

 

[ratsapprentice]

How many times does a fan of any of the above* watch the sport live? Once...twice a year...?

...compare that with a field sport fan who will be going to see games during the same season and at roughly the same time of day.

*with the obvious exception of handball and basketball - which are played in a league format.

The TDF only lasts 23 days.
I can't find any attendance figures for motorsport in France, but outside of Le Mans I can't imagine it's attendances differ greatly from those in the UK.

Basketball and Handball would be the major competitors - with (according to my maths) 1.6million annual spectators (according to average attendance x number of games played) for Basketball.
And probably similar for Handball - although there is limited info available.

So it looks to me like Handball and Basketball would have roughly similar combined overall annual attendance as Cricket and League do here.
If you then take those out of consideration then you still have the same picture - English Football is relatively and actually much bigger than French football.