British & Irish Lions vs Japan

[ncurd]

There are two statements that are being conflated here,

Is a fully fit (played Premierships and International rugby in last 8 months) Kruis better than AWJ? I'd happily say so, I don't expect a single Welshman to agree.
Can a Kruis playing Japanese rugby for 8 months with no international rugby better than Beard? I don't know but Beard isn't anywhere near the Kruis from above so its certainly a possibility.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I've never met a Welshman more up AWJs backside than you tbh... Kruis was better than AWJ before he left and you want to argue that after being coached by a coach with a proven pedigree that he will come back worse than St Whinge who himself has been mediocre for Ospreys and whose whole claim is from being in the team that got the jammiest 6N win in history. Yeah ok...

We may not have seen Kruis in the last 8 months but we have seen St Whinge and nothing about what we have seen suggests he is better than Kruis was or likely is.

Cool. So, why do you think it is that it appears no one thinks this. Why do you think Kruis isn't in contention?

Oh, let me guess, Gatland is a **** coach? Or some other answer that is driven by your confirmation bias.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't really care about the wider Kruis v AWJ argument, but the idea that Top League is a bum retirement league is not the case, its a high tempo style of play with a lot of offloading and keeping the ball alive and the level of fitness required is pretty high. Saffas definitely have no reserves about picking Japan based lads. Kruis (who I don't have an opinion on really) is definitely going to be fitter than RG who is still going to be rehabbed with the Boks when he gets home for example.

Pretty sure Lood de Jager has played single figures of games since the world cup as well

 

[MikeTheNative]

It's pretty simple.
While I'll defend Beard in saying that he's been reasonbly decent for Wales, it's a bit of 'meh' selection, like if they selected Charlie Ewels.

An on form Kruis is probably England's most well rounded Lock but I can see how being out in Japan for the last year would rule you out of selection. I doubt any of the coaches would have been able to make the trip over to see him play.
The biggest question mark is why Grey hasn't been called up, he's so far in front of the other candidates, (considering Ryan's injury) he must have ruled himself out.............................. or slept with Gatland's daughter.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Cool. So, why do you think it is that it appears no one thinks this. Why do you think Kruis isn't in contention?

Oh, let me guess, Gatland is a **** coach? Or some other answer that is driven by your confirmation bias.

Why do you think players who are genuinely good have other other teams thinking "I want them in my team" and AWJ never appears in these? Has the whole world got it in for poor old Whinge? You lot certainly thought Gatland was a **** coach when you were calling for his head, or have you forgotten that? Selective memory? Maybe Kruis isn't in contention because he isn't in Britain? Just a thought?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Why do you think players who are genuinely good have other other teams thinking "I want them in my team" and AWJ never appears in these? Has the whole world got it in for poor old Whinge? You lot certainly thought Gatland was a **** coach when you were calling for his head, or have you forgotten that? Selective memory? Maybe Kruis isn't in contention because he isn't in Britain? Just a thought?

So we agree with the coaches. Being out in Japan is probably a pretty big reason why he isn't even being considered for a spot in the squad let alone starting a test match. Glad we got there in the end.

Talking of the players. What do you think the players feel about AWJ (not the Welsh ones obviously) but do you think Itoje and Henderson and everyone else were all high fiving each other yesterday or do you think they realise he's a top player who will be missed as our squad will be poorer without him?

 

[ncurd]

It's pretty simple.
While I'll defend Beard in saying that he's been reasonbly decent for Wales, it's a bit of 'meh' selection, like if they selected Charlie Ewels.

An on form Kruis is probably England's most well rounded Lock but I can see how being out in Japan for the last year would rule you out of selection. I doubt any of the coaches would have been able to make the trip over to see him play.

This to some extent, but I also wouldn't expect any of the players making them excluded for playing for England (which Kruis is I believe) to actually be available there are probably agreements with the RFU along those lines.

He's a "wouldn't it be cool if we could call him up", "it sucks the stuff with Sarries has basically excluded him when he should be in his prime" kind of conversation rather than a "why hasn't Gatland called him up"

 

[ncurd]

as our squad will be poorer without him?

Well they called up Beard to replace him.....so its hard to argue otherwise.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Lawes has been a long way of his best for sometime now

Not sure I agree with that.

I think he's added a lot to his all round game. Still physical, still great in the line out, improved carrying, disruptive in mauls and even been seen to snaffle a few turnovers. What you're seeing less of are the highlight reel marginally late hits on fly halves.

What he's not though is 19.5 stone. Never has been, never will be. But if you're confident in your front row's scrummaging ability I'd have no hesitation in playing him. Pretty sure he'll have a role in the tests whether it's in the row, at 6 or from the bench.

The experience of 89 Eng caps isn't to be sniffed at either.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

So we agree with the coaches. Being out in Japan is probably a pretty big reason why he isn't even being considered for a spot in the squad let alone starting a test match. Glad we got there in the end.

Talking of the players. What do you think the players feel about AWJ (not the Welsh ones obviously) but do you think Itoje and Henderson and everyone else were all high fiving each other yesterday or do you think they realise he's a top player who will be missed as our squad will be poorer without him?

Yeah, due to geography not ability, well done. You were arguing it was the QUALITY of the Japanese league and not the LOCATION of it so don't try to twist it. If Japan happened to be off the coast of France, I'd bet Kruis would be in contention.

Er no I don't think they were high fiving because celebrating a players injury is a really scummy thing to do? Why would you even ask such an idiotic question? I've only seen 1 set of fans celebrating an injury to a player, no prize for guessing the nationality of the fans celebrating or the injured player.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yeah, due to geography not ability, well done. You were arguing it was the QUALITY of the Japanese league and not the LOCATION of it so don't try to twist it. If Japan happened to be off the coast of France, I'd bet Kruis would be in contention.

Er no I don't think they were high fiving because celebrating a players injury is a really scummy thing to do? Why would you even ask such an idiotic question? I've only seen 1 set of fans celebrating an injury to a player, no prize for guessing the nationality of the fans celebrating or the injured player.

No it's not just about Geography. **** me. If he was playing super rugby then it would be different but even then no international rugby would also be counting against him so no, it has little to do with geography and much to do with the standard of the league and the mindset of players who take contracts out in Japan. I.e for the money so they can set themselves up before they retire. Not all but a lot

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

No it's not just about Geography. **** me. If he was playing super rugby then it would be different but even then no international rugby would also be counting against him so no, it has little to do with geography and much to do with the standard of the league and the mindset of players who take contracts out in Japan. I.e for the money so they can set themselves up before they retire. Not all but a lot

Ah yes, all those saffers, perenara, Barrett and so many more were merely going to a retirement home

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

No it's not just about Geography. **** me. If he was playing super rugby then it would be different but even then no international rugby would also be counting against him so no, it has little to do with geography and much to do with the standard of the league and the mindset of players who take contracts out in Japan. I.e for the money so they can set themselves up before they retire. Not all but a lot

That's the same mindset Bundee Aki and Duhan VDM have had since moving north. I reckon Kruis would be more committed returning as a second time Lion.

 

[ncurd]

Not sure I agree with that.

I think he's added a lot to his all round game. Still physical, still great in the line out, improved carrying, disruptive in mauls and even been seen to snaffle a few turnovers. What you're seeing less of are the highlight reel marginally late hits on fly halves.

What he's not though is 19.5 stone. Never has been, never will be. But if you're confident in your front row's scrummaging ability I'd have no hesitation in playing him. Pretty sure he'll have a role in the tests whether it's in the row, at 6 or from the bench.

The experience of 89 Eng caps isn't to be sniffed at either.

I think there's a fair argument in all that I think it about impact when Lawes plays now I don't see what impact he's really making for the side. Like I said though all things being equal he's my 4th choice behind Itoje, Kruis and Launchburry for England. But that's not a list to be sniffed at being considered 4th best and the drop off isn't certainly anything like most other international nations. We've said it before players like Attwood would be great for most other nations and he's have probably had a good international career but he couldn't get a look in in front of those guys.

 

[Welsh Exile]

That's the same mindset Bundee Aki and Duhan VDM have had since moving north. I reckon Kruis would be more committed returning as a second time Lion.

I said a lot not all. What do you think the main motivation is for players to go over to Japan?

That's a rhetorical question by the way.

But yeah, I'm sure the Japanese league is pretty decent with some high tempo rugby but physically I'm sure it's way way below that of any other major league which is the main point. I mean, there's a reason why players don't flock there on mass and a reason why coaches don't rush to consider these guys for things like Lions tours.

 

[ncurd]

That's the same mindset Bundee Aki and Duhan VDM have had since moving north. I reckon Kruis would be more committed returning as a second time Lion.

Kruis had a difficult choices when it comes down to it, it was either go play genuine substandard rugby the championship, find a premiership club which has a budget cap which combined with the lack of moves looks like not many clubs had the room for the top Sarries players, or go play in a different league and not be England eligible but can actually afford you.


I like Sarries were punished its done a number on the players , potentially their careers and England's prospects at the international level.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I feel like that I'm saying controversial stuff here when to me this just seems like common sense. I think this place is making me go mad.

Still waiting for someone to say they've watched him this season. Just 1 game is fine

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

No it's not just about Geography. **** me. If he was playing super rugby then it would be different but even then no international rugby would also be counting against him so no, it has little to do with geography and much to do with the standard of the league and the mindset of players who take contracts out in Japan. I.e for the money so they can set themselves up before they retire. Not all but a lot

If only the Pro 14 was a fantastic league then maybe we could select players from it rather than the whole thing being prevented from being an embarrassment by basically just the Irish... I guess we can't pick any players who have such a low quality club game. The Top 14 also had plenty of older players, guess we need to ditch that. The prem has had a few over the hill internationals. As a Bath fan I know all about getting the Welsh rejects who have had their day. Guess we should ignore the prem too.

 

[Welsh Exile]

If only the Pro 14 was a fantastic league then maybe we could select players from it rather than the whole thing being prevented from being an embarrassment by basically just the Irish... I guess we can't pick any players who have such a low quality club game. The Top 14 also had plenty of older players, guess we need to ditch that. The prem has had a few over the hill internationals. As a Bath fan I know all about getting the Welsh rejects who have had their day. Guess we should ignore the prem too.

Yeah, you're making yet another strawman of my position and making false equivalences.

All you've got to do is ask yourself why is it just you, and a few others on this forum, who hold this view? Why is it not being considered (I'll grant you as far as we know as it could be for all we know) by any of the coaching staff? Why are there several players above him for consideration? Especially when they're rubbish players like Adam Beard.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Kruis has been very open over why he went to Japan: he's wanted to play out there since he was a kid, but kept putting it off because it would mean retiring from England duties.
He spoke to some sides when he was out there for the RWC and then when Sarries got relegated all the stars seemed to align for the move.