British & Irish Lions vs Japan

[ncurd]

Yeah this has gone down a weird route with Kruis. Main story is if Ryan plays for Ireland this weekend I am mailing Gatland an envelope full of Sunday morning Guinness shits.

Its almost like he watched Gray score a try in the prem final went "can't have any of that ****" and immediately started dialling for Beard.

 

[Welsh Exile]

So it's lack of game time you think is the problem, not being in Japan? So the Saffers who play in the other leagues will be better than the ones playing in Japan and the Saffas who played at the last world cup who were based in Japan were all poor, correct?

No, as I keep saying it's all of it. It's not one thing. It's both. If he had been playing for a Prem team and not England I wouldn't like it but that would be ok. Likewise, if he was in Japan but playing for England it wouldn't be ideal but would be fine. Not having either of those things for the last season for a professional rugby player is going to count against you when you're selecting an elite level rugby squad comprised of 4 nations.

Again, you making a strawman of my position I'm not saying any of the stuff you think I've said and now you're trying to put words in my mouth.

Do you want to answer my question? I e asked a couple of times. Why does it appear you and a few internet nobodies on here (like all of us) know better than any of the coaches making the selection. I mean, it would be good if you had even watched 1 single game that Kruis has played but you haven't.

 

[Groundhog]

Here we goooooo.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Here we goooooo.

But even if he starts you can't really blame Gatland can you? I mean, he's a bit constrained by time and had to make a decision that day.

Obviously if Gatland comes out and says Ryan was never in contention (which is possible) then fill your boots

 

[ncurd]

I mean, he's a bit constrained by time and had to make a decision that day.

I am very unconvinced by this statement the prem final players probably won't be playing this weekend or come off the bench much like Sarries guys last week. So anyone called up probably had 2 weeks to bed in, and they'll be other injury call ups as well.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I am very unconvinced by this statement the prem final players probably won't be playing this weekend or come off the bench much like Sarries guys last week. So anyone called up probably had 2 weeks to bed in, and they'll be other injury call ups as well.

So what you're saying is, you would've held off until Saturday and if he started for Ireland pick him and if not then explore other options then but only then?

Can't say I agree with that. You have to immediately look at players who are fit. He could've waited a week but that shows indecisiveness and poor leadership IMO

 

[ncurd]

So what you're saying is, you would've held off until Saturday and if he started for Ireland pick him and if not then explore other options then but only then?

Can't say I agree with that. You have to immediately look at players who are fit. He could've waited a week but that shows indecisiveness and poor leadership IMO

I don't think he needed to call up replacements (and name the captain) that evening, he could of certainly waited for proper assessment of Ryan's injury and it still doesn't excuse not calling Gray up.

To me the speed of those decisions said panic and desperation.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

LCD got his head caved in, fully sparked out, spinal board on etc.
They didn't wait to assess his injury

 

[Welsh Exile]

I don't think he needed to call up replacements (and name the captain) that evening, he could of certainly waited for proper assessment of Ryan's injury and it still doesn't excuse not calling Gray up.

To me the speed of those decisions said panic and desperation.

We're not talking about Gray (I know you love a pivot but let's try and stay on point)

Maybe not that evening but I'd say 24 hours. 48 tops.

I would be surprised if he didn't reach out to be honest but I guess if he was never considering him he wouldn't of done. Judging by the tweet above it seems they are still unsure and are monitoring him so it sounds like he's being properly assessed.

I mean, if Ireland don't know if he's playing or not and we're flying out to SA what today, tomorrow? We play our first game on Saturday. I think it's fair to say he's constrained by time a little bit.

 

[ncurd]

LCD got his head caved in, fully sparked out, spinal board on etc.
They didn't wait to assess his injury

eh? Not sure what your point there is

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

This has all strayed way off, though. The question is, do you think players who have been playing out in Japan for the last year (who also have not played any international rugby since March 2020) should be starting above AWJ?

Obviously @ncurd massively changed the goalposts as he realised how stupid that was to them saying "ahhh, by match fit I didn't mean match fit, I meant playing in the prem and international rugby"

If Kruis was still knocking about over here even I would defiantly have him in the conversation. Fact is, he ain't and most coaches seem to agree with me on this

If you think he's a better player then yeah I would. The guy is world class on his day. How many times have top players come back from injury, played a couple of pro14 games and stepped into the international arena as if they'd never left.

He's a pro who has played a full season and won his domestic league, he'd be fine. I reckon the RFU are probably the bigger blocker, they definitely have sway and don't want the optics of a player not currently eligible for England selection playing for the Lions.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

eh? Not sure what your point there is

That Ryan having a knee strain is no reason to outright exclude him when LCD got a much more serious injury on the same day but still flew out with no waiting to assess whether he's actually fit enough

As mentioned somewhere above, though, it's Gray who has been ****** over here.
If Ryan is a slight doubt then I can understand him being overtaken in the pickings by someone else - there's no excuse for Gray being skipped over though

 

[ncurd]

If you think he's a better player then yeah I would. The guy is world class on his day. How many times have top players come back from injury, played a couple of pro14 games and stepped into the international arena as if they'd never left.

He's a pro who has played a full season and won his domestic league, he'd be fine. I reckon the RFU are probably the bigger blocker, they definitely have sway and don't want the optics of a player not currently eligible for England selection playing for the Lions.

Without trying to more fuel on the fire because we should be talking about Gray/Ryan which is the true story.

The other part is @Welsh Exile is right, few of us have watched the Japanese leagues, you know who else probably hasn't? Gatland and his coaching staff. Its too much work to check in on one world class player that you probably being discouraged not to pick by the authorities if you bring it up, especially when your trying to check in on a bunch of players who are playing each other week in, week out so don't have to watch as much rugby. Kruis unfortunately was never in contention, the discussion here is should he have been and would he still be better than Beard? When I look at it more I certainly think Kruis being called up from Japan has more chance of making the test side than Beard in terms of his actual capability to play. However I don't think his playing ability and current fitness level has a single thing to do with his complete non inclusion.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Without trying to more fuel on the fire because we should be talking about Gray/Ryan which is the true story.

The other part is @Welsh Exile is right, few of us have watched the Japanese leagues, you know who else probably hasn't? Gatland and his coaching staff. Its too much work to check in on one world class player that you probably being discouraged not to pick by the authorities if you bring it up, especially when your trying to check in on a bunch of players who are playing each other week in, week out so don't have to watch as much rugby. Kruis unfortunately was never in contention, the discussion here is should he have been and would he still be better than Beard? When I look at it more I certainly think Kruis being called up from Japan has more chance of making the test side than Beard in terms of his actual capability to play. However I don't think his playing ability and current fitness level has a single thing to do with his complete non inclusion.

I'm taking a very academic approach to this. Rather than Kruis v AWJ I just don't think the Top League is so sub standard you won't be international quality after a season of it.

And to use the effective argument, the SA coaches seem to agree!

 

[Welsh Exile]

If you think he's a better player then yeah I would. The guy is world class on his day. How many times have top players come back from injury, played a couple of pro14 games and stepped into the international arena as if they'd never left.

He's a pro who has played a full season and won his domestic league, he'd be fine. I reckon the RFU are probably the bigger blocker, they definitely have sway and don't want the optics of a player not currently eligible for England selection playing for the Lions.

You said it right there. World class on his day. That is no way to pick players for Lions tours in my opinion. You've got to be largely led by current form at intentional level (and to a lesser extent club rugby)

That doesn't mean to say you rule out anyone in bad form but you've got to be led by form and what intensity you've been playing at. I mean, Gatland is already showing his English bias and totally taking the **** by taking so many English lads you can't throw in English players who have not been playing international rugby AND playing out in Japan. We've already got enough English in bad form in the squad as it is.

And again, we go back to the very simple point that no one has seen him play a single minute of rugby so are just guessing. Honestly
If someone can say yeah I've watched him and he's done good that would be some welcome evidence but all I'm doing wading is guess work.

At the end of the day Gatland and co will know all these players and their situations way better than us as they have all the information.

 

[MikeTheNative]

that's a bit of a weird one if Ryan is considered fit enough to play this weekend. He was injured in the week from reading articles, it wasn't on Saturday so Ireland management must have had some idea of the injury before the Japan game?
It was deemed a 'short term' injury so perhaps they thought it was a couple of weeks but ended up being one?

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm taking a very academic approach to this. Rather than Kruis v AWJ I just don't think the Top League is so sub standard you won't be international quality after a season of it.

And to use the effective argument, the SA coaches seem to agree!

But again, it's the double whammy of this and the lack of international rugby. I class the lions as a step up from international rugby so everything you're talking about there is just an assumption. It's a really bad assumption as you haven't seen him play a single minute so could have been playing terribly for all you know.

There is one way to mitigate this risk though. Play players who have been playing international rugby

Genuine question. How many South Africans from the final are out in Japan? I genuinely have no idea.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Genuine question. How many South Africans from the final are out in Japan? I genuinely have no idea.

Four are currently playing there and a few more have been playing out there but moved on since

 

[Welsh Exile]

Four are currently playing there and a few more have been playing out there but moved on since

Cheers. Which 4 are they out of interest?

 

[ncurd]

I don't think the Lions are a step up from international rugby at all, the opposition don't suddenly get better than they would on a normal summer tour and the Lions rarely add up more than the sum of their parts, more so in recent years which cause more by the small amount of time players get together. There s a lot of prestige and the game atmosphere is diffrent for sure.