Australia vs England - 3 Tests - June 2016

[ratsapprentice]

Thus far we've had a good indication that Maro won't be found wanting as an international lock. England have just won the 6 nations (and a GS) playing 2 6's and an 8. Despite perceived shortcomings in my view Haskell and Robshaw can be mighty proud of their performances. They were deployed to perform a role (smash, get up smash, smash ad infinitum) and did it well. That's 2 sixes you'd need to be pretty clear that Maro was better than and that's before Herman Munster (Ewers) gets a look in. If it's solely to accommodate Launchbury I can see the argument, but he's not long back from a significant injury and hasn't demonstrated the form to oust Maro. Plus given you need a starter and a back up, why mess about too much?

Lawes in my view has not developed as we'd have wished. Such a shame but he's a destructive weapon and that's all. His carrying is woefully substandard and he simply doesn't offer enough anywhere else. At best he gets a look in at 6 but again he's down the pecking order.

If it were me I pick players in their best positions and let them fight it out. Mashing stuff up to accommodate best players compromises too much for me. I've just watched a whole 6n of that with Ford and Farrell...............

I missed this in my previous replies... I have to say that I agree with all of that.

Hasn't Jones said he sees Clifford as an 8 going forwards?
I don't think it means a massive amount ATM (as he said he sees Watson as a 15, but hasn't used him there) but will be interesting to see how it pans out

Yes, he has... but that he sees 7 as a position in which he can gain international experience.
I think he will try out Watson at 15 at some point this year, if circumstances allow.

 

[Which Tyler]

I feel 6, 7 and 12 is where we are weakest in terms of proven international talent and thus the area I want to see the biggest shakeup.

Can't really agree with that, all of Robshaw, Haskell and even Wood are plenty proven at international level, and are plenty good enough to do a job in a balanced backrow for a world class team (note, not world class individuals, and playing any 2 of them can never make a balanced backrow at the sharp end).
We're fine at 6 for proven talent, and we're fine at 6 for potential to improve. Far weaker at 9 for both of those aspects - hell, I'd argue that we're better stocked at 12 than we are at 9!


As for the perennial Itoje's position debate - I still think he's a more natural blind-side; however, he plays for a club who need him at lock, and are well stocked for flankers. No player can become the best they can switching positions long-term. Besides, I like competition for places, and the bench is also key in modern rugby. Itoje, Launch and Kruis is a great combination of starting and benching locks, and all work well with each other, allowing the coach free rein to select on a horses for courses basis - well backed up by Attwood and Lawes to push them and keep them honest (returns to form permitting).

Equally IMO Watson needs to either move to FB for England, or wing for Bath; Slade needs to move in-field when he returns and either make the 10 or the 12 shirt his own (12 IMO) etc etc

 

[McTallshort]

Wood?...oh yeah sorry forgot about him

 

[Which Tyler]

Wood?...oh yeah sorry forgot about him

Wish I could; though seriously - he could be part of an effective unit at international level, just not alongside a slightly better doppleganger or out-of-position.
I wonder if he's contact Edie to let him know that he's still ready and willing to accept the captain's armband? You know, for net time Hartley picks up a ban.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Croft playing some great rugby lately

Although I do think Mike Williams @23 has huge potential

 

[McTallshort]

Wish I could; though seriously - he could be part of an effective unit at international level, just not alongside a slightly better doppleganger or out-of-position.
I wonder if he's contact Edie to let him know that he's still ready and willing to accept the captain's armband? You know, for net time Hartley picks up a ban.

Oh yeah bet he feels a bit daft now...."hey new coach I'm willing to replace 3 points a begging Robshaw! Oh what's that? You actually think I'm crap? OK best stay off twitter for a while"

 

[Willodell100]

We're fine at 6 for proven talent, and we're fine at 6 for potential to improve. Far weaker at 9 for both of those aspects - hell, I'd argue that we're better stocked at 12 than we are at 9!

In terms of stock I agree with you in that we don't have a huge amount of options but I would say that in Youngs & Care have two very good scrum halves. Yes Youngs isn't quite in the world class bracket but he's not far off & has very fond memories of touring Aus too:

http://youtu.be/e1GMyv_Z2a4

In Dan Robson & Ben Spencer we have two scrum halves that are getting better and getting more time. I saw Robson at the Ricoh on Sunday & he is the real deal (& won man of match). I would definitely take him Down Under as I think he is more than ready.

 

[Which Tyler]

IMO - in Youngs and Care we have 2 infuriatingly inconsistent performers; who alternate between looking like solid internationals (but not close to world class) and like they'd be a liability at Prem level. I don't recall either of them ever performing well for 2 consecutive international windows. Their saving graces for the last few years have been the lack of alternatives and the blind (false) hope that they can't both be **** at the same time. Both of their problems are easily remedied in training, and mostly mental - but they've both steadfastly refused to address their failings, in 57 and 58 caps; they really need to be jettisoned.

Simpson was just as bad at a lower level until 18 months ago; but has really stepped up in that last 18 months.
Spencer is full of talent, and looks like the best SH we've produced in a decade; and is 3rd choice for his club.
Robson and Cook never looked like becoming Prem quality when they were playing age-group together, or their first few years at senior level. Robson got slightly ahead (and more game-time) at Glos, but never threatening for caps; whilst the last 18 months have seen Cook blossom into something I never thought he could be - which is a solid prem starter but unlikely to be any more than a journeyman at international level. Robson has stepped up to the plate only really in the last 2-3 months since being gifted the starting shirt at pests. Cook and Robson being talked about for England is, IMO, more a sign of our desperation to be rid of Youngs and Care than an indicator of their actual class. Both may well prove me wrong, and Robson (especially) needs to prove that his current form is an indicator of his quality, not a temporary purple patch.

Simpson has shown more than enough to get a chance; whilst Spencer really needs to be nurtured to fulfill his potential, and could probably have used a change of club a couple of years ago; though it's far from too late for him at Sarries.
Someone like Chudley only merits a mention on the principal that we've run out of other names.

Were I Eddie...
I'd take Care, Simpson and Spencer to Australia this summer, planning to start Care, bench Simpson, and introduce Spencer to the step-up
If that went well, then I'd look to start Simpson and bench Care in the Autumn, and take it from there.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

How long is Simpson out for?

They said originally 4-6 weeks that was 2 months ago.

 

[Every Time Ref]

IMO - in Youngs and Care we have 2 infuriatingly inconsistent performers; who alternate between looking like solid internationals (but not close to world class) and like they'd be a liability at Prem level. I don't recall either of them ever performing well for 2 consecutive international windows. Their saving graces for the last few years have been the lack of alternatives and the blind (false) hope that they can't both be **** at the same time. Both of their problems are easily remedied in training, and mostly mental - but they've both steadfastly refused to address their failings, in 57 and 58 caps; they really need to be jettisoned.

Simpson was just as bad at a lower level until 18 months ago; but has really stepped up in that last 18 months.
Spencer is full of talent, and looks like the best SH we've produced in a decade; and is 3rd choice for his club.
Robson and Cook never looked like becoming Prem quality when they were playing age-group together, or their first few years at senior level. Robson got slightly ahead (and more game-time) at Glos, but never threatening for caps; whilst the last 18 months have seen Cook blossom into something I never thought he could be - which is a solid prem starter but unlikely to be any more than a journeyman at international level. Robson has stepped up to the plate only really in the last 2-3 months since being gifted the starting shirt at pests. Cook and Robson being talked about for England is, IMO, more a sign of our desperation to be rid of Youngs and Care than an indicator of their actual class. Both may well prove me wrong, and Robson (especially) needs to prove that his current form is an indicator of his quality, not a temporary purple patch.

Simpson has shown more than enough to get a chance; whilst Spencer really needs to be nurtured to fulfill his potential, and could probably have used a change of club a couple of years ago; though it's far from too late for him at Sarries.
Someone like Chudley only merits a mention on the principal that we've run out of other names.

Were I Eddie...
I'd take Care, Simpson and Spencer to Australia this summer, planning to start Care, bench Simpson, and introduce Spencer to the step-up
If that went well, then I'd look to start Simpson and bench Care in the Autumn, and take it from there.

This is a good assessment.

On Cook - I rate him at Bath, I don't think he's smashing the door down for international selection but I think maybe worth a shot at some point

I think part of his problem is he's a very unfashionable type of scrum half. Personally I love a back-to-basics SH who gets to the ruck and fires out a quick accurate pass and doesn't look to run too much, but that just doesn't seem to be the template nowadays. Even at Bath, he's only first choice because Matawalu, a glory boy who can barely pass to semi-pro standard, is injured.

 

[Willodell100]

How long is Simpson out for?

They said originally 4-6 weeks that was 2 months ago.

He had surgery on his ankle injury at the end of Jan so back by the end of April at the earliest.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Care and Youngs are either two halves of a world class scrumhalf, or two halves of a barely-club standard scrumhalf, depending which halves you take.
Infuriating when you see them produce some fantastic play and back it up with some terrible.

I'm not fussed about Simpson being back soon because it means Robson gets more time and Robson is the better scrumhalf. Would love to see him tour over the summer.
Also a big fan of Cook and Spencer.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Right this would be my squad. I'm not sure who's injured and not available, so just do your thing pick up on the little details.

Loosehead- Marler, Vunipola. Marler has to start wth Mako coming off. Mullan is a more than capable back up, strong scrummager and can step in and not change the gameplan.
Hooker- Hartley, George, LCD. Taylor can come in if anyone else is injured. Hartley only stays as the players seem to like him as a captain.
Tighthead- Brookes, Cole. Hill and Thomas are both chomping at Coles heels. I haven't liked him a lot this 6 nations, our scrum is stable but the penalty count is mad.
Lock- Kruis, Itoje, Launchbury, Kitchener. A lot of players like Slater, Attwood, Symons and Lawes are in contention. Slater may be instead of Kitch so that we have 2 athletic and 2 bulky locks.
Blindside- Haskell, Ewers. Ewers would be my preferred starter, also means that Binny could be rested for Clifford and Ewers can give us the carrying we need. Croft would be in my eyeline as well.
Openside- Kvesic, Fraser. Maybe against popular belief but I think Fraser is the better player, having outplayed Kvesic when they've met. Underhill is also in there but I haven't seen him play.
Number 8- Binny, Clifford. Because Beamount is injured and Hughes isn't available. Morgan is always good for us but we'll see if he suits Jones' gameplan.
Scrum Half- Care, Youngs, Robson. Might not be consistent, but both produce match winning displays. Robson has everything, we'll see what he can do. Youngs drops out if Simpson becomes available.
Fly Half- Ford, Farrell. Straight shoot out. Farrell tried his hardest but he wont be a 12 to beat the Aussies.
Centre- Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly, Slade. Hill is interesting but these 4 are the standouts. Slade is probably seen as a 12, but without constant games there I would probably put him 13 with Manu at 12.
Wing- Nowell, Rokoduguni, May. All 3 can do things at intl' level. Probably have May on the bench as he can cover 15,11,14 maybe 13. Lewington, Wade and Yarde are all form players. Wade should have been tested by now.
Fullback- Watson, Brown. Watson to start the first test. Brown is the back up. Pennell and Foden back ups.

For the first test
1.Marler 2.Hartley 3.Brookes 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Ewers 7.Fraser 8.Vunipola 9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.Nowell 12.Tuilagi 13.Joseph 14.Rokoduguni 15.Watson
16.George 17.Vunipola 18.Cole 19.Launchbury 20.Clifford 21.Care 22.Slade 23.May

 

[ratsapprentice]

I disagree that Robson has only started looking good recently, he was looking very, very promising for Glos for at least his last season there.

Robson's the one we should be looking at.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I disagree that Robson has only started looking good recently, he was looking very, very promising for Glos for at least his last season there.

Robson's the one we should be looking at.

I'm giving this post a rare
+10000

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Care and Youngs are either two halves of a world class scrumhalf, or two halves of a barely-club standard scrumhalf, depending which halves you take.
Infuriating when you see them produce some fantastic play and back it up with some terrible.

I'm not fussed about Simpson being back soon because it means Robson gets more time and Robson is the better scrumhalf. Would love to see him tour over the summer.
Also a big fan of Cook and Spencer.

So that would make Care and Youngs scrumquarters?

 

[Which Tyler]

So that would make Care and Youngs scrumquarters?

 

[Every Time Ref]

Scrumquarters, I like that.

The fact that the Care/Youngs thing is still going on after 50-odd caps really suggests it's time to stop the Care/Youngs thing. Someone needs to be groomed to be the long term SH. That means even if one of the two still starts, for now, the other needs dropping completely so we have another option on the bench to blood.

 

[Lancashire Nick]

It's rather refreshing to think we might have options in many positions (judging by all the differing views in this thread) ......................... As opposed to the usual problem of having nobody of quality to fill approximately 10 of the shirts

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/rug...erts-is-england-s-next-big-hope-a3210011.html

Not proper news, in that the DM reported the same thing a while ago, but it's more fuel on the fire, ennit?