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All Blacks squad for their end of year tour

As a side question, is it IRB law/ruling that only a certain amount of players can be taken on tour?

And as All Black supporters, how would feel if Henry fielded a 'second string' team against Scotland.
I, as an obvious Scottish supporter, would actually be more worried about a potential thrashing, with youngster wanting to earn their spots.

Are my thoughts/fears shared by anyone?

I'm not sure on the ruling for the number of players, whether it's an IRB thing, or an NZRU thing ... anyway 30 the magic number, so I guess we just have to live with it.

As for the "Second String" side to face Scotland, I don't think the ABs will field the exact same side from week to week, but they are more likely to retain the core of the team and introduce a few of the fringe and players that have recovered from injuries ... you might also get substitutions from the bench earlier if the game looks to be won, to allow more game time for the whole squad.
 
no limit on touring squads. Australia are taking 40 players

But world cup squads are limited to 30, so using a 30 man squad simulates that.

I hope we thrash scotland back to the stone age. No resptct for them after they fielded a 2nd rate side against the AB's in 07 and robbed them of the only competitive pool game they were going to get before the finals.
 
Jared Payne, maybe? Admittedly, I can't see a reason (that would be accepted by anyone else) that Payne warrents a spot in the centers over SBW.

If Hosea Gear is not in this AB squad (bar injury), I will throw a temper tantrum that would make rugbywriter look like a mature and respectable member of the TRF community
.

Personally I can't see them including Hosea Gear. They seem very keen to include Sivivatu (even if he hasn't played any NPC), and I'm sure they will be keen to include Toeava if he's fit. The only way I can see Gear getting a look in is if both Sivivatu and Ranger are still injured. I'm certainly looking forward to the temper tantrum though :)
 
Personally I can't see them including Hosea Gear. They seem very keen to include Sivivatu (even if he hasn't played any NPC), and I'm sure they will be keen to include Toeava if he's fit. The only way I can see Gear getting a look in is if both Sivivatu and Ranger are still injured. I'm certainly looking forward to the temper tantrum though :)
I will make Malcolm Tucker from "In the Loop", look like Kermit the Frog.
 
It depends how Gear goes at the commonwealth games. I mean, they took Jane from the Sevens squad, Vito from the sevens squad, Dagg from the sevens squad, it seems like, if you want to get looked at from the All Black coaches, be the stand out player of the New Zealand sevens squad lmao.
 
1 - Tony Woodcock
2 - Kevin Mealamu
3 - Owen Franks
4 - Brad Thorn
5 - Tom Donnelly
6 - Jerome Kaino
7 - Richie McCaw
8 - Kieran Read
9 - Piri Weepu
10 - Dan Carter
11 - Joe Rokococo
12 - Ma'a Nonu
13 - Conrad Smith
14 - Cory Jane
15 - Mils Muliaina

16 - Andrew Hore
17 - Ben Franks
18 - Sam Whitelock
19 - Liam Messam
20 - Jimmy Cowan
21 - Aaron Cruden
22 - Israel Dagg

R - Aled deMalmanche
R - John Afoa
R - Anthony Boric
R - Victor Vito
R - Alby Mathewson
R - Colin Slade
R - Sonny Bill Williams
R - Rene Ranger

During the Tri-Nations the AB's "1st XV" looked to be improving with every game they played... This came from playing together more and more. this tour shouldn't be solely about discovering talent but about working out any little faults before 2011. Sticking with a pretty much unchanged team will build that consistency even more (which is what we need in about 12 months time) Lets face it. we're not going to find a perfect replacement for any of the top players... and why try. The only time we seem to give young up and coming players a decent chance is when we throw about five of them on the field and then we wonder why they don't do so well... A classic example was on last years EOY Tour when Zac Guilford covered Sivivatu, everyone was raving about him but of course he would do well he was surrounded by the best! these guys need to be eased into it. Not Just chucked into deep end and expected to be the same dominant force as the more experienced players
 
In that case, you would have been against McCaw making his test debut at the time he did? He played for the AB's straight from the Canterbury ANZC team before ever getting a Super 12 contract.

In fact, before 1996, All Blacks were always selected from NPC.



I don't see 12/13 as utility, I see them as interchangeable positions...remember Tana?

Absolutely. I was horrified when they picked McCaw and thought it was one of the worst decisions the selectors had made. No need to say whether I was right or wrong. Just because they got it right about McCaw doesn't mean they will be right about SBW.

It depends how Gear goes at the commonwealth games. I mean, they took Jane from the Sevens squad, Vito from the sevens squad, Dagg from the sevens squad, it seems like, if you want to get looked at from the All Black coaches, be the stand out player of the New Zealand sevens squad lmao.

Gear has been the best winger in New Zealand for three years. I can't see them picking him off of one tournament. Their problem with him, and the reason that they picked Jane and Dagg is because of kicking. They know he is a great finisher but I think they want a wing who has the whole package. He won't be able to show any kicking ability at the Commonwealth Games, IMO.
 
Absolutely. I was horrified when they picked McCaw and thought it was one of the worst decisions the selectors had made. No need to say whether I was right or wrong. Just because they got it right about McCaw doesn't mean they will be right about SBW.

True, but it's a little less of a risk in the SBW case, as he won't be selected as the first choice 12, Nonu is ...

Gear has been the best winger in New Zealand for three years. I can't see them picking him off of one tournament. Their problem with him, and the reason that they picked Jane and Dagg is because of kicking. They know he is a great finisher but I think they want a wing who has the whole package. He won't be able to show any kicking ability at the Commonwealth Games, IMO.

He appears to lack the kicking skill, so perhaps he wasn't the best winger in New Zealand for the last three years, for that reason. If you combine this with him specialising as a winger, he's probably going to be behind the Rene Ranger's and Kahui's when it comes to AB selection (rightly or wrongly)
 
True, but it's a little less of a risk in the SBW case, as he won't be selected as the first choice 12, Nonu is ...



He appears to lack the kicking skill, so perhaps he wasn't the best winger in New Zealand for the last three years, for that reason. If you combine this with him specialising as a winger, he's probably going to be behind the Rene Ranger's and Kahui's when it comes to AB selection (rightly or wrongly)

I dunno if Rene Ranger's really a kicker...
 
I dunno if Rene Ranger's really a kicker...

Yeah, my point with Ranger and Kahui, is that although neither are renown kickers such as Jane or Dagg,they both play Centre and Wing for the AB's ... If Gear only plays Wing, and doesn't kick, it's going to lessen his likelihood of AB selection for both those reasons
 
Yeah, my point with Ranger and Kahui, is that although neither are renown kickers such as Jane or Dagg,they both play Centre and Wing for the AB's ... If Gear only plays Wing, and doesn't kick, it's going to lessen his likelihood of AB selection for both those reasons
Meh. Gear is god.

He's not a great kicker, which I'm sure burns him up inside while he outscores every other winger in New Zealand over the last three years. With the game being played as it is, it's now less important for players to field kicks and kick constantly, as it's now much easier to hold onto the ball. The game suits Gear's style of play, and considering how dominant he was, even when the game didn't suit his game, I think it's terrible if he doesn't get included on the tour. I will this further in more graphic detail, if he is not included in the team.
 
Meh. Gear is god.

He's not a great kicker, which I'm sure burns him up inside while he outscores every other winger in New Zealand over the last three years. With the game being played as it is, it's now less important for players to field kicks and kick constantly, as it's now much easier to hold onto the ball. The game suits Gear's style of play, and considering how dominant he was, even when the game didn't suit his game, I think it's terrible if he doesn't get included on the tour. I will this further in more graphic detail, if he is not included in the team.

Yeah, well I'm gonna be Switzerland when it comes to Gear (neutral) :D ... i'm only putting forward reasons why he hasn't been selected, or possibly won't be selected, not whether he should or shouldn't be selected
 
Here's an interesting article by Taine Randell in his Sunday News Column

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-news/sport/columnists/4215636/Leave-McCaw-and-Carter-at-home

As you can see, he suggests that both Carter and Macaw should be left behind ... i'm not so sure. While it would probably do Macaw and Carter some good, I think it's probably be better to take them, but give them less game time by either starting the fringe players and have them come in off the bench, or have them start, and be subbed off earlier

... anyway, here's the article

The upcoming All Blacks tour of the Northern Hemisphere should be used as preparation for next year's World Cup. That's why our dynamic duo should be told to take the summer off.

RICHIE McCaw and Dan Carter should be left in New Zealand rather than touring north with the All Blacks at the end of the month.

This is an ideal chance to give the two players most central to New Zealand's World Cup quest a decent break ahead of the tournament here next year.

I'm convinced we need to be looking at long-term gain rather than short-term success with this deadly duo.

That means they should be skipping an end-of-year tour that lacks relevancy in the bigger picture.

These tours are becoming questionable, especially with the addition of the stopover matches in Asia that are clearly just a money-grabbing exercise.

The reported lack of interest in Hong Kong for the Bledisloe Cup clash against Australia there on October 30 is concerning but also a pointer to the climate of overkill.

I detect from acquaintances in Britain that there is a danger of similar nonchalance to the matches there, given the regularity with which the All Blacks appear up north nowadays.

This is a third Grand Slam attempt in six years, diminishing the mystique of what was once a rare quest.

It's clear the World Cup is the Holy Grail and that is what we must be concentrating our efforts on.

Resting superstars McCaw and Carter would have double benefits.

It will give them a decent breather â€" a complete summer off.

McCaw operates in the most demanding position in the game and has played virtually every minute of test action this year. He deserves a break.

Carter is still coming back from ankle surgery. Why the rush? Let him fully recuperate and recharge for the biggest year of his stellar career.

Leaving them behind would force the All Blacks to operate without them, and that mightn't be a bad thing.

History shows that when one or the other is absent the All Blacks struggle a bit. Look at the last Bledisloe Cup, where we squeaked past the Wallabies in the last minute without Carter.

When both are absent it can be a real battle, as we discovered early last year.

But I think it would do the All Blacks some good to learn to win without them.

It's also the only real opportunity the selectors are going to have to look at alternatives in their key positions at No7 and No10.

There's no doubt these are the areas where we are lacking depth of proven test performers.

Now is the time to try to rectify that.

Rather than having alternatives get one start on tour and play the odd 30-minute cameo here and there, Graham Henry and his fellow coaches could throw full responsibility to the back-up players.

There are five tests on this tour â€" give them two-and-a-half games each.

The All Blacks shouldn't feel any compulsion to include McCaw and Carter in their touring party.

New Zealand have more than fulfilled their responsibilities in the past, consistently taking fully-loaded squads north just months after northern sides have toured our shores with severely weakened outfits.

New Zealand's responsibilities should be to ourselves right now in terms of getting the All Blacks best prepared for the World Cup. To me, that means taking an opportunity to rest some star power and fully explore some alternatives.

Apart from the 2007 World Cup shock in Cardiff, the All Blacks haven't lost a test in Europe during Henry's reign. There's a good chance that no matter who they field, they could still come through this tour unbeaten. In 2005 Henry essentially took two sides north and played them on alternate weekends to claim the Grand Slam.

I'd go a step further this time and try and do it without the talisman forward and back â€" McCaw and Carter.

And who should we be looking at to take their places?

Daniel Braid wasn't lured back to New Zealand for nothing and remains a genuine alternative at openside flanker. Tanerau Latimer is probably the best of the rest. So let them scrap over the No7 jersey for six weeks â€" and may the best man win.

As far as Carter's replacement is concerned, I'd be taking Colin Slade. I'm still not totally convinced about Aaron Cruden at this level and I think Mike Delany deserves a bit more investigation. Here's the perfect chance.

Will there be a bolter when when the touring squad is named next Sunday?

I like the look of Jarrad Hoeata, the Taranaki, Chiefs and New Zealand Maori back rower. He's a physical player with plenty of hustle and bustle, is a good lineout option and could be a powerful back-up to Jerome Kaino at No6.

I think Victor Vito and Liam Messam are too similar to play together. So I would have one of them operating at No8 and Hoeata at blindside.

This is a crucial time for the All Blacks and that has been brought home to me over the past couple of weeks as I've toured the country with the Webb Ellis Cup on the Heineken tour.

We haven't just visited the main centres, we have been in the rural areas, too. The one thing that has been hammered home to me is the importance Kiwis are placing on the World Cup and the All Blacks performance. They sense a big step in the right direction this year that has raised expectations.

With those expectations comes pressure. The All Blacks need to ensure they have all their bases covered â€" that's why learning to live without McCaw and Carter right now wouldn't be a bad thing.
 
I think it's a good idea actually, mainly because how often have we seen someone other than Carter play two test matches in a row at 10? I think Donald did a few times, but obviously that was against much stronger opposition than what we'll be seeing in the Northern Hemisphere.

The same could be said for open side flankers.
 
but obviously that was against much stronger opposition than what we'll be seeing in the Northern Hemisphere.
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Sorry, didn't want to start a war or anything.

What I should've said was that traditionally NZ has less trouble with the Northern Hemisphere teams than with the Southern Hemisphere teams. I retract my previous statement.
 
I agree with Taine Randell, McCaw and Carter need to be left out to develop depth at 7 and 10.

Instead of both Braid and Latimer, I'd replace one of them (probably Latimer) with George Whitelock. I think George Whitelock has massive potential even though he hasnt been having the greatest of seasons, and being in the All Black environment should help his game. Karl Lowe needs to be given an opportunity at some stage as well.

For Dan Carters backups I'd take Colin Slade and Stephen Donald. Cruden's kicking needs to be improved before I'd consider him a top first five. Stephen Donald's recent form definitely warrants a callup. I'd even be interested to see Robbie Robinson in the mix, he played outstandingly for the NZ Maori. He's also versatile and can play fullback/wing.
 
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I agree with Taine Randell, McCaw and Carter need to be left out to develop depth at 7 and 10.

Instead of both Braid and Latimer, I'd replace one of them (probably Latimer) with George Whitelock. I think George Whitelock has massive potential even though he hasnt been having the greatest of seasons, and being in the All Black environment should help his game. Karl Lowe needs to be given an opportunity at some stage as well.

For Dan Carters backups I'd take Colin Slade and Stephen Donald. Cruden's kicking needs to be improved before I'd consider him a top first five. Stephen Donald's recent form definitely warrants a callup. I'd even be interested to see Robbie Robinson in the mix, he played outstandingly for the NZ Maori. He's also versatile and can play fullback/wing.

George Whitelock has already been in the All Black environment, he was brought in as a project sort of like Cruden was and he didn't take his opportunity. He has potential in that he has great physical attributes but he has really underwhelmed after he promised to be so good as a young gun, not just this year but for his entire spell in Canterbury to be honest. He has been very disappointing, nowhere near an All Blacks callup. A better option for me would be Matt Todd, he had to play 6 all year because Whitelock was blocking his path to the 7 jersey (largely on reputation) but has been playing superbly. He got a good chance to impress in the 7 jersey against Southland and he grabbed it with both hands. When George comes back from injury it should have to be at 6 on form.

Also Donald? nahh.
 
For Dan Carters backups I'd take Colin Slade and Stephen Donald. Cruden's kicking needs to be improved before I'd consider him a top first five. Stephen Donald's recent form definitely warrants a callup. I'd even be interested to see Robbie Robinson in the mix, he played outstandingly for the NZ Maori. He's also versatile and can play fullback/wing.

How do you think his kicking (at goal and at posts) has been for Manawatu the last two games?
 

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