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All Blacks squad for their end of year tour

his skill level is noticably lower than his rivals.

His passing is brilliant, as good or better than any other 10 in NZ
His positional kicking is accurate and long, either in play or from a penalty he's getting as much or more length than all the other 10's in NZ
That one bomb he kicked in that last game was nigh on perfect
His goal kicking is fantastic
Even his worst critics dont question his defence

That one comment of yours makes me wonder if I should just ignore your posts.

IMO carter is a very gifted player, the worlds best. But how long has it been since carter kicked or passed as well as donald has since he came back from injury?

Donald doesn't do things the same way many other 10's do. But he's taller than the likes of Carter, Cruden, Slade, Brett & Delany so to me it's no suprise.
 
His passing is brilliant, as good or better than any other 10 in NZ
His positional kicking is accurate and long, either in play or from a penalty he's getting as much or more length than all the other 10's in NZ
That one bomb he kicked in that last game was nigh on perfect
His goal kicking is fantastic
Even his worst critics dont question his defence

That one comment of yours makes me wonder if I should just ignore your posts.

IMO carter is a very gifted player, the worlds best. But how long has it been since carter kicked or passed as well as donald has since he came back from injury?

Donald doesn't do things the same way many other 10's do. But he's taller than the likes of Carter, Cruden, Slade, Brett & Delany so to me it's no suprise.

It depends what you mean by "passing". If there is no pressure from defenders and he isnt close to the line then sure his passes are hard and flat. If there is pressure or he doesn't have much time then his passing is no better than any other 10 in NZ. I definitely wouldn't describe Donald as "skillfull", he doesn't have anywhere near the guile or slight of hand of the other players, he cant create space by skillfully moving the ball around or varying up his pass like the other 10s do. "Robotic" would be the word i would use.
As i have said before, Larkham is around the same height and he oozed skill and class. Donald doesn't, its not because hes tall, he just doesn't have that string to his bow.
 
IMO ranger the way donald is performing on the field contradicts your point of view. Easy argument for me right now because donald proves me right each weekend, as he has done for the last few weeks.

People say his kicking for goal sucks, yet he's made what was it? 22 of his last 23 kicks?
People hate his chip kicks, yet two trys have come from them in the last three games and he's only tried it ~3-4 times.
He's got no vision or passing ability yet waikato's ability to get over the line in the danger zone has dramatically improved since he's been back. numerous trys credited to Donalds passing, vision and decision making.

Should be a good game again tonight.

When I rate players I look at the big picture and the potential they have. All players have bad days and hopefully they learn from them, everyone has bad days (unless they are called richie McCaw). To write a player off because of the odd bad day is a mistake, same way I havn't written off cruden even though he didn't play well against Australia. Someone like donald, yes he's had bad days but they are rare. He's also had days where he's outplayed Can Carter in super rugby and the likes of Getau in super and test rugby. And his current form suggests he's in the best shape of his carrier.
 
IMO ranger the way donald is performing on the field contradicts your point of view. Easy argument for me right now because donald proves me right each weekend, as he has done for the last few weeks.

People say his kicking for goal sucks, yet he's made what was it? 22 of his last 23 kicks?
People hate his chip kicks, yet two trys have come from them in the last three games and he's only tried it ~3-4 times.
He's got no vision or passing ability yet waikato's ability to get over the line in the danger zone has dramatically improved since he's been back. numerous trys credited to Donalds passing, vision and decision making.

Should be a good game again tonight.

When I rate players I look at the big picture and the potential they have. All players have bad days and hopefully they learn from them, everyone has bad days (unless they are called richie McCaw). To write a player off because of the odd bad day is a mistake, same way I havn't written off cruden even though he didn't play well against Australia. Someone like donald, yes he's had bad days but they are rare. He's also had days where he's outplayed Can Carter in super rugby and the likes of Getau in super and test rugby. And his current form suggests he's in the best shape of his carrier.

Christ sake, how many times do i have to say im not judging him on one game or his bad days!!
Even when he plays well, the mechanics of his play are off. The big picture is that he doesn't have what it takes to play first five for the All Blacks. I have given my reasons and you have just read what you wanted to read apparently.
 
fair enough, but all I'll say is 22 out of 23 is pretty good for someone who's mechanics are off?

you sure? :0
 
fair enough, but all I'll say is 22 out of 23 is pretty good for someone who's mechanics are off?

you sure? :0

The mechanics of his general play are off, in how slowly he does things, his split second decsion making, acceleration etc etc.. every thing i explained before. There is a difference between that and goal kicking.
I'll give you that he has been kicking goals well, and hes a good defender, a hard worker and a hard runner. That being said, his positives don't outweigh the negatives enough for me, especially with the All Blacks style of rugby.
 
5 from 5 at goal and two trys (22 points) for Donald behind the weaker forward pack of the two sides.

not bad for someone who's "mechanics of his general play are off"

another man of the match effort.
 
What's the score Larksea? I'm not able to watch the game and couldn't find a stream for it anywhere for the computer
 
waikato won 27 points to 25

donald scored and converted a try as the final act of the game to win

Cruden had a good game and scored a nice try too but missed a couple of important kicks failing to take advantage of some early trubos forward dominace

The turbos forward pack won the advantage line contest and the waikato lineout was pretty bad losinf 4-5 of their own throw after Vern went off injured after 15min

Turbos looked the better side for most of the game, was just a great game from donald including one individual try from about 40m out and a couple nice runs from Mils that won it for waikato.

Some harsh calls against waikato it has to be said, one was a penalty kick to touch that was simply awesome from around half way that should have put waikato to a 5m attacking lineout but the manawatu touch judge got it wrong and called it out. Gave the comentary a good laugh I guess.

Couple other interesting calls

Turbos forwards were impressive though, they work really well as a unit.
 
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5 from 5 at goal and two trys (22 points) for Donald behind the weaker forward pack of the two sides.

not bad for someone who's "mechanics of his general play are off"

another man of the match effort.

The "Run really hard at the defense" tactic might work in the ITM cup, but its **** useless at test level.
The Manawatu defense rushed at Donald and he responded by either kicking the ball away or shoveling, where was his quick thinking and play making skills? He got rattled by the the second to last team in the competition and his first-five game went out the window. He went back to relying on his raw strength which you can't do in international rugby. He scored one try by busting a weak tackle attempt and exploiting the injury to a cover defender and another by running hard and straight. Kudos to him on that, but he didn't give me any evidence that he is able to be the playmaker for the All Blacks. Those opportunities simply would not be there for him in test rugby. I honestly can not believe that you don't see that...

If the All Blacks find themselves in another situation like France in 07 where they are just hammering at the line crying out for a creative spark. If Donald is playing 10, and running hard or shoveling it on doesn't work, then we're sunk. On the basis of tonights game, i would much rather have Crudens tackle slipping and passing and interplay game in that situation.
 
The "Run really hard at the defense" tactic might work in the ITM cup, but its **** useless at test level.
The Manawatu defense rushed at Donald and he responded by either kicking the ball away or shoveling, where was his quick thinking and play making skills? He got rattled by the the second to last team in the competition and his first-five game went out the window. He went back to relying on his raw strength which you can't do in international rugby. He scored one try by busting a weak tackle attempt and exploiting the injury to a cover defender and another by running hard and straight. Kudos to him on that, but he didn't give me any evidence that he is able to be the playmaker for the All Blacks. Those opportunities simply would not be there for him in test rugby. I honestly can not believe that you don't see that...

If the All Blacks find themselves in another situation like France in 07 where they are just hammering at the line crying out for a creative spark. If Donald is playing 10, and running hard or shoveling it on doesn't work, then we're sunk. On the basis of tonights game, i would much rather have Crudens tackle slipping and passing and interplay game in that situation.

I'm sorry, explain this Cruden performance you speak of?
 
Another close loss for the turbos, heartbreaking for us. How did Cruden go?

Had an off day with the boot, about 50% i think. He slipped alot of tackles though, made a few good line breaks and was ever present in getting his team's attack flowing. His kicking in general play was sound, but his lack of execution with the kicking tea cost them the match.

When weighing up the battle of the first fives, Donald was better with the boot, but Cruden showed more promise as a playmaker.
 
I'm sorry, explain this Cruden performance you speak of?

Are you serious? he had two clean line breaks, his passing game was top notch and his playmaking was head and shoulders above Donalds shovel or kick it away performance. If you don't believe me, go find the stats for broken tackles. I realise that you are a cheifs fan and congratulations on that, but can you look past what team these guys are playing for and look at the players themselves
 
Had an off day with the boot, about 50% i think. He slipped alot of tackles though, made a few good line breaks and was ever present in getting his team's attack flowing. His kicking in general play was sound, but his lack of execution with the kicking tea cost them the match.

When weighing up the battle of the first fives, Donald was better with the boot, but Cruden showed more promise as a playmaker.

He missed one difficult kick, and a couple of averagey kicks made difficult due to the wind. By slipped a lot of tackles you mean broke tackles, not missed tackles, I think? He did make some good linebreaks, but personally I don't see how they were any different to Donald's...

It was by no means a bad game for Cruden, but it wasn't a great game - though the same could be said for Donald.

You'v said that any player can look good against a poor team (like Otago) Ranger, and Waikato were poor for much of the game, so how come Cruden wasn't able to capitalise?
 
Had an off day with the boot, about 50% i think. He slipped alot of tackles though, made a few good line breaks and was ever present in getting his team's attack flowing. His kicking in general play was sound, but his lack of execution with the kicking tea cost them the match.

When weighing up the battle of the first fives, Donald was better with the boot, but Cruden showed more promise as a playmaker.

Thing is though, we probably wouldn't have even been in the game without him.
 
Thing is though, we probably wouldn't have even been in the game without him.

Na, to be honest it was the forwards that were winning the game - Cruden didn't have a huge impact, I'm not saying he wasn't handy or anything, but the best players were the forwards.

Cruden didn't really have to make a lot of kicks at all, come to think of it.
 
Na, to be honest it was the forwards that were winning the game - Cruden didn't have a huge impact, I'm not saying he wasn't handy or anything, but the best players were the forwards.

Cruden didn't really have to make a lot of kicks at all, come to think of it.

I realise I'm straying off topic since this is an AB's squad thread but since I didn't see the game I may as well ask; how did James Oliver the Turbos no6 go?
 
lol ranger

that same hard running from donald won the game for the AB's vs AUS in brisy in 08

face it, donald outplayed the current AB 10 even though he had a weaker forward pack in front of him. Donald was forced to kick a lot because the Waikato forwards were getting smashed. And the kicks were good though the waikato chase was poor most of the time.
 
He missed one difficult kick, and a couple of averagey kicks made difficult due to the wind. By slipped a lot of tackles you mean broke tackles, not missed tackles, I think? He did make some good linebreaks, but personally I don't see how they were any different to Donald's...

It was by no means a bad game for Cruden, but it wasn't a great game - though the same could be said for Donald.

You'v said that any player can look good against a poor team (like Otago) Ranger, and Waikato were poor for much of the game, so how come Cruden wasn't able to capitalise?

His goalkicking wasn't great. But maybe its just a problem of different philosophies here, i don't mind too much about goal kicking. I see the primary job of a first five is to be a play maker and direct a team.
The thing that makes Donalds broken tackles different from Crudens is the means in which they go about beating a defender. Donald busts tackles with raw strength, and Cruden slips past them with guile. At ITM cup level this difference is insignificant, a broken tackle is a broken tackle and who cares how the they manage to go about doing it.
BUT, this difference becomes very important at international level, where all the players are bigger and stronger. Cruden is still able to wrong foot and slip past defenders and will break just as many tackles at test match level, but when Donald tries to outmuscle players, it just wont work, hes strong enough to pull it off in the ITM cup but not against South Africa (unless hes playing O'Gara).
Its the exact same situation that the selectors had in mind when they chose Conrad Smith out of the NPC and Wellington club rugby before that. There were plenty of players breaking just as many or even more tackles than him, but the difference was how. The big polynesian centres from Marist and Norths were busting tackles with strength and Conrad was slipping tackles much like Cruden does.

I would also argue that Cruden was able to capitalize to some extent. He scored one try and had more linebreaks than anyone else. Also, you have to bear in mind that Cruden doesn't have any other players to draw focus from him. When defending Waikato, you have to watch Willison, Tokula, Speight, Muliaina etc because they are all attackers that can tear through your line, this gives Donald some breathing room to attack with. Against Manawatu, Cruden is by far the biggest threat and they can afford to drift off other players to shut down his running game. You could see tonight that Jack Lam had been given direct orders to watch Cruden like a hawk. He mitigated Crudens running game somewhat but as a result Waikato didn't have his presence as often in the forwards and got done at the breakdown
 

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