• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

A Political Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
and if the 2nd ref is 48-52 again?
We leave or we stay. It will likely be a binding vote that enact's confirmation on a deal with option to remain or no-deal dealt with by STV.

Will I always argue to rejoin the EU or have a trade deal that essentially means EFTA in all but name, sure. But the reality is 'this war' would be over.
 
The big problem is that Brexit is such a polarising issue and I honestly don't see the two sides accepting a decision with continuing disagreement. There is very little middle ground. Either you are in the E.U and get benefits or you're out an have autonomy. The middle ground is Switzerland and Norway which gives up autonomy and Britain will never accept that. The problem is there has been so much misleading information that ordinary voters no longer know (if they ever did) what the actual facts are and instead of it being discussed on it's merits through reasoned debates, it's become about each side trying to manipulate voters emotionally and try to blame the other side for the mess we're in. A GE and a second referendum will solve nothing unless Britain decides to do it properly by informing the people of what each decision means and making it clear the benefits and ramifications of each choice. A second referendum would also have a transferable vote system as if there were multiple leave options and no transferable vote then leave voters after would claim they are cheated. I can't see politicians actually making grown up decisions that aren't in their own interests, so this mess will just keep on rolling on. At this stage no deal is probably the most likely outcome when the French get their way and the E.U has to refuse an extension.

Simple fact is from the start when Cameron called it purely to stop voters going to UKIP, it's been a complete joke. Ill-informed voters voting on a vague question without any clear and accurate information. A idiotic PM with no mandate rushing Article 52 through to be seen to be doing something, without having a plan for the negotiations. This made the negotiations a partisan issue instead of a cross-party parliamentary one, allowing the opposition to just sit their, criticise and interfere without having to take responsibility. A GE purely to increase a party majority backfiring and giving too much power and influence to a small extremist party. MPs on both leave and remain refusing to back the deal because they want a better one, without actually having a plan to get one or taking responsibility for extending Brexit (especially ERG types). Sticking to the mantra that this is the will of the people, without even contemplating that people can change their minds, regardless of the fact that politicians did it when they voted on the deals. Interpreting a narrow 52-48 win as justification to go for the most extreme versions of Brexit. The election of the worst PM in modern history (probably in history), with even less mandate than the previous one, by 300,000 retired pensioners. The realisation that leave is not as simple as 'just leave', but refusing to admit this or consider alternatives as you have dug the hole so deep there is no possible way to get out without loss of face and thus losing votes, which is far more important than the good of the country.

Honestly I could spend hours going through all the ridiculous decisions that have occurred, but if there is ever a clear resolution, political historians will have their careers set just by analysing this giant **** up for the rest of their careers. The most ridiculous thing of all is that some politicians were claiming that our referendum is the democratic will and a beacon of democracy across the world. If anything it shown just how bad a democracy can be.
 
Last edited:
2016 was like signing a contract to buy a house off plan based on a glossy brochure with amazing photos, subject to survey. The house is now built, doesn't quite look like the photos in the brochure and the survey contains some things we weren't expecting or aware of 2016. It just highlights how flawed the process was and that if anything it should have been a two stage vote with a break/get out clause which is where we are now.

I love how a second referendum based on more accurate and up to date information is undemocratic and yet it's fine to have multiple general elections (let's not kid ourselves - being fought on one single issue) just as a way of getting a new intake of MPs to vote the way the Government of the day wants.

Our brand of democracy is a joke. It's all about politicians misleading, mis-representing information and creating false narratives (People v Parliament, money going to EU v NHS) as a way of winning votes and power.
 
Last edited:
I love how a second referendum based on more accurate and up to date information is undemocratic.

My problem with this is that people are not up to date with accurate information. They are still believing any emotional rhetoric that fits their narrative and completely ignore any proven facts. I think this is on both sides as well. If anything all Brexit has proven is that the majority of voters are ill-informed, vote with hearts over single issues or tribal lines and are incapable of making an informed decision. I think it is a combination of voters not wanting to know, politicians eager to keep voters ill-informed, a biased media and the fact that people haven't been taught how to verify independently if something they are told is true. Simple fact is that British voters are still incapable of making an informed decision on an issue as complex as this.

Edit: Though of course our esteemed, elected representatives are also just as incapable and that's even more ridiculous as it's supposed to be their job. Politicians really should be servants of the people, not themselves or their party.
 
My problem with this is that people are not up to date with accurate information. They are still believing any emotional rhetoric that fits their narrative and completely ignore any proven facts. I think this is on both sides as well. If anything all Brexit has proven is that the majority of voters are ill-informed, vote with hearts over single issues or tribal lines and are incapable of making an informed decision. I think it is a combination of voters not wanting to know, politicians eager to keep voters ill-informed, a biased media and the fact that people haven't been taught how to verify independently if something they are told is true. Simple fact is that British voters are still incapable of making an informed decision on an issue as complex as this.
I agree the only argument for a second ref (apart from I do believe more voters are informed but I kid myself if I think most are, just look at how many no-deal nutheads there are out there), is that it clearly puts the deal, no-deal, revoke issue to bed and Westminster can stop cocking about. Wish it could be fought on ideal grounds of genuine facts and information but that was never going to happen.
 
Ok just had a new thought...is party politics necessary?

I understand why it has developed, but in my view all it has led to is tribal politics with no compromise at all. Why should voters and MP's just vote for a blanket party regardless of their policies. Surely there are examples of MPs disagreeing with their party, but not able to defy the whip. Basically voters should vote for their MP based on what they promise to do for their constituents and MPs should vote based on their own opinion, not because of how their party tells them too.

The issue with this how do you form a government...who is chosen to lead the country. Presidential system and they appoint their own team to suggest bills? Once MPs are elected they stand for positions and are elected by MPs?

Obviously this is a very early thought and in no way is it practical, but I just felt like exploring what a democracy free of party politics might look like and if it could hypothetically work, because if you look at the U.K and U.S, party politics is detrimental to politics as a whole and so generalised. I've never felt like I've belonged to one party ever and I always agree and disagree with aspects of every parties manifesto (not including the extreme parties).
 
Reality is you can't get away from party politics. What we as a country need to move away from is huge monolitics parties and have several smaller ones that then have to work together to form majorities, best example is probably the German's. That way people vote for representatives who legitimately represent them and those representatives then have to find the middle ground to represent the country as a whole.

First issue is FPTP but its slowly happening. Labours vote will likely be crushed this GE and Brexit Party look to divide Tories as well. With center-left Labour Remainers and center-right Tory Remainers looking to go LD or Green.
 
First issue is FPTP but its slowly happening. Labours vote will likely be crushed this GE and Brexit Party look to divide Tories as well. With center-left Labour Remainers and center-right Tory Remainers looking to go LD or Green.

Please don't get my hopes up. For me changing the electoral system is the only real benefit that could come from Brexit, but I don't dare dream with these politicians.
 
My problem with this is that people are not up to date with accurate information. They are still believing any emotional rhetoric that fits their narrative and completely ignore any proven facts. I think this is on both sides as well. If anything all Brexit has proven is that the majority of voters are ill-informed, vote with hearts over single issues or tribal lines and are incapable of making an informed decision. I think it is a combination of voters not wanting to know, politicians eager to keep voters ill-informed, a biased media and the fact that people haven't been taught how to verify independently if something they are told is true. Simple fact is that British voters are still incapable of making an informed decision on an issue as complex as this.

Edit: Though of course our esteemed, elected representatives are also just as incapable and that's even more ridiculous as it's supposed to be their job. Politicians really should be servants of the people, not themselves or their party.

Agreed, however compared to 2016 it is night and day. We basically had an entire country in the dark and none the wiser as to what they were voting for. At least now we at least have a section of the electorate who have taken the time and trouble to better inform themselves.
 
December 9th GE looking incredibly likely, joy.
 
You've got to love these lines the Govt comes out with such as "This parliament has run its course" with zero admission that they have squandered their slim majority through their own doing.
 
Have I got this right?
Not wanting a vote is anti-democratic
Wanting a vote is anti-democratic
There's no contradiction here for Tory leavers?
 
Can't wait for the tories to increase their numbers
Nah brexit party will stop that from happening.

My prediction in what may be the most unpredictable election in the UK for some time.

Overall Remain, Deal, No-Deal MP number don't really change. We won't have remain parliment but likely Labour minority (even bigger minority than Johnson government) government propped up by LD/SNP this will be a small number of seats, say 10.

SNP: Take Tories seats in Scotland
LD: Will take Labour and Tory seats may double MPs but it won't be stonking gains back up to 2010 levels.
Labour: Lose seats to Tories/LD, Gain some seats from Tories, overall net loss but second largest party and the only to be able pass a Queen's speech.
Tories: Just losses BXP will kill them marginals way moreso than UKIP did in 2017.
 
Personally, I'd like to wait a very long time to see the tori'es increasing their numbers - I'm more hoping that the things Tree-Frog, CockWomble and Puce Racist have said are true (that Thursday marks the death of the Tory Party)

So it just remains to be seen what ammendments get added - presumably the date change is 50:50 (and feels a little pathetic, even if I do understand the reasoning) - and presumably 2nd ref and lowered voting age won't get close.
 
Yeah the date quibbling is utter horsecrap, was a student way back when any that are politically inclined will make sure they vote at the most important place in their mind. Any not politically inclined won't vote anyway.

EDIT: Yeah voting age and second ref will get nowhere neither Tories or Labour want em.
 
And we are off! Get ready for 6 weeks of complete bullshit.
Nothing says "healing the country" like forcing politics discussions into the traditional Christmas Family Feuds.

Joy to the world!
 
Nothing says "healing the country" like forcing politics discussions into the traditional Christmas Family Feuds.

Joy to the world!
I know right?

Christmas this year was already on the bad cards. Mum fell ill just before Christmas this year and we were told it was potentially terminal (which it turned out to be) on Christmas Eve. Instead of having Christmas as a full family for the first time since my nephew was born it meant Mum was spending her first day in the ICU and my Dad had Christmas dinner alone. Its meant my approach to Christmas this year is one of sheer trepidation, I'm managing social gatherings again but still spending Christmas day with my sister and father and seeing how that goes. However I have been accused of using all this as 'an excuse' by my very Brexity in-laws as it was suppose to their turn this year so we wouldn't spend it with them. So yeah thanks for chucking more fuel onto that fire.
 
3.5 years to get Brexit done but this time we mean it.

"What the Conservatives will be promising if we win is that we will get Brexit done," they said.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Top