A Political Thread

[Amiga500]

Yes and IF 100% of the Tories MPs vote to put Corbyn in power he'll also win.

Look I can make up scenarios that don't fit any statement those MP's has ever made to fit my narrative as well!

I know what if the SF take up their oath's and vote as well! I mean they've said they won't but they could!

Your entire premise is built on hypotheticals and not only can be 'credibly disputed' but laughed of as 'not having a ducking clue'.

Keep dancing around the truth as much as you want.

The LibDems right now could put no deal completely in the dustbin, guarantee an extension and get a general election. All it takes is two votes. One to put Corbyn in, another to immediately remove him.

But Jo doesn't want to.

Party political games are more important to her than the future of the country. A hypocrite who is no better than the Tories.



There is no way the likes of Ken Clarke is going to vote against putting Corbyn in on the understanding he calls for an extension and general election within a 2 week period before he must leave office. Might not vote for him - but won't vote against him.


The Lib Dems claim they are better than the Tories and don't put party before country... well then prove it.

 

[ncurd]

There is no way the likes of Ken Clarke is going to vote against putting Corbyn in on the understanding he calls for an extension and general election within a 2 week period before he must leave office. Might not vote for him - but won't vote against him.

Based on what? Clarke's not the only one you have to convince to abstain and even then there is no evidence to suggest he would.

Seriously I'm not the one dancing around the truth here, your the one claiming people will behave differently to what they've publicly said.


You're doing a pretty poor job and laying a convincing argument that what your suggesting would actually happen.

 

[Amiga500]

Based on what? Clarke's not the only one you have to convince to abstain and even then there is no evidence to suggest he would.

What planet are you on?

Ken Clarke is not going to vote against the only route to an extension given the situation with the Johnson government. He probably won't vote for as that would be unpalatable, but won't vote against.

How many times has he spoken publicly against a hard Brexit and no-deal exit? How much more evidence do you need apart from a statement saying "I would not vote against a Corbyn government in a VONC"?

Seriously I'm not the one dancing around the truth here, your the one claiming people will behave differently to what they've publicly said.

Who has publicly said they will vote against Corbyn in government?

Not supporting != voting against.

 

[McTallshort]

Most of the labour MP begrudgingly vote for Corbyn I very much doubt any lib dems and certainly no tories would vote for him

Now if Labour had a decent centrist leader who didn't have a very euro sceptic back ground and had not sat on the fence for 3 years then maybe just maybe they would be a popular vote against the government

 

[ncurd]

What planet are you on?

Ken Clarke is not going to vote against the only route to an extension given the situation with the Johnson government. He probably won't vote for as that would be unpalatable, but won't vote against.

How many times has he spoken publicly against a hard Brexit and no-deal exit? How much more evidence do you need apart from a statement saying "I would not vote against a Corbyn government in a VONC"?

Who has publicly said they will vote against Corbyn in government?

Not supporting != voting against.

So Clarke has exactly the same position as Swinson but she's the problem......sure, whatever, I give up. Go recite The Internationale to magic grampa shrine at your next Momentum meeting.


God its like talking to an arch-Brexiter.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Now if Labour had a decent centrist leader who didn't have a very euro sceptic back ground and had not sat on the fence for 3 years then maybe just maybe they would be a popular vote against the government

Labour don't want a centrist leader though - just cause a lot of their MPs are Tory-lite doesn't mean their member base is.

 

[ncurd]

Labour don't want a centrist leader though - just cause a lot of their MPs are Tory-lite doesn't mean their member base is.

Currently... they were quite happy with Kinnock, Blair, Brown & Milliband.

Honestly I don't know how much they want Corbyn now, most Labour members/supporters I know have lost all faith in him as a leader. That isn't to say they'd get a centrist.


Also many people have driven away due Brexit/anti-semitism/'attacked as Red Tories'




The reality on that front though is does Labour want to win election or be 'pure' currently the membership on last polling is they'd prefer the latter. But elections in the UK are won on the center ground and the country as a whole leans center-right, no pure left leader is going to win a general election. Esepecially with Labours current polling numbers.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1179349934031736832?s=20

 

[Which Tyler]

Ken Clarke is not going to vote against the only route to an extension given the situation with the Johnson government. He probably won't vote for as that would be unpalatable, but won't vote against.

You seem to be forgetting the Benn Act - which has already made an extension the legal default.

The status quo, guarantees that we request an extension
A VONC risks that not happening

The ONLY way of getting Ref3 before a GE is by avoiding PM Corbyn

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Currently... they were quite happy with Kinnock, Blair, Brown & Milliband.

Well yeah, a large portion of Labour members weren't even born when Kinnock was in charge, and the clue was in the name with "New Labour".

I mean when you look at the Labour membership numbers it's not hard to guess at what kind of party the membership wants - and it's not Tony Blair Mk.2

The reality on that front though is does Labour want to win election or be 'pure' currently the membership on last polling is they'd prefer the latter. But elections in the UK are won on the center ground and the country as a whole leans center-right, no pure left leader is going to win a general election. Esepecially with Labours current polling numbers.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1179349934031736832?s=20

Presumably they don't want to sell out their beliefs at a shot at leadership - whilst I do think that a "New Labour"/centrist approach would be successful and definitely preferable to the Tories, I have no qualms with people sticking to what they believe in over selling out for power.

 

[McTallshort]

Labour don't want a centrist leader though - just cause a lot of their MPs are Tory-lite doesn't mean their member base is.

Well great then the base cannot moan when no one wants to support him

 

[ncurd]

snip

So one thing that graph takes into account is the introduction of registered supporters which make up about 20% of the graph. Its also a note that their membership 'surged' in their first real leadership contest in 21 years....

I'd be interested to see how Corbyn would do a leadership election now, I think if he were to resign Labour would get a Starmer rather than a Benn but don't think you'd get a Thornberry, center of the party rather than right of it. I do think Starmer would do very well against a Johnson Conservative party.




On selling out for power, I am 100% behind the breakdown of the two main party into smaller chunks so voters can select someone who best represents them rather than the party willing to give up most to the center ground. Coalitions built by the MP's elected by the voters not coalitions built within parties.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Starmer is my choice as well, tbh.
I'm just playing devils advocate, really.

 

[Amiga500]

So Clarke has exactly the same position as Swinson but she's the problem......sure, whatever, I give up.

Lemme think, who is elected party leader of a critical swing of 18 MPs, that with a decision to vote up then down a Corbyn government could give JC 14 days to extend then call a GE?

Last time I looked, it wasn't Ken Clarke.


[BTW - I wouldn't vote for labour - I wouldn't trust them to run a water tap without bankrupting it]

 

[Amiga500]

You seem to be forgetting the Benn Act - which has already made an extension the legal default.

The status quo, guarantees that we request an extension
A VONC risks that not happening

The ONLY way of getting Ref3 before a GE is by avoiding PM Corbyn

Do you actually trust the system to protect us from Johnson crashing through that with shenanigans?

I'm far too cynical to believe that for a moment.

 

[Which Tyler]

Do you actually trust the system to protect us from Johnson crashing through that with shenanigans?

I'm far too cynical to believe that for a moment.

I have greater faith in a existing system than a non-existent one.
Currently, if the extension request doesn't go in, then A] someone else can send it, and B] BJ risks prison, with a maximum of a life sentence.

If we go for a VONC we risk no GNU, BJ being in charge of any GE timetable, and nomsitting parliament to hold him to account.

I have greater faith in the parliament that exists, doing its job, than I do of a dissolved parliament which doesn't exist, doing the job of parliament.

 

[Gavin]

Saw this after big Arlene was on saying that it's the Irish Republic who will cause a hard border is they don't accept the new BoJo deal.

 

[Amiga500]

I have greater faith in a existing system than a non-existent one.
Currently, if the extension request doesn't go in, then A] someone else can send it, and B] BJ risks prison, with a maximum of a life sentence.

Aye, he risks prison.


He'll find a loophole, not extend - and in the time it takes to get him pinned down October has been and went and we're out.

Then his actions will be declared unlawful - but too late then and unlawful comes with no charge.

 

[Which Tyler]

So your solution is to hand him a new loophole, whilst parliament is dissolved and can't act against it.
Cunning

 

[Bada-Bing!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49931937

Rory Stewart standing down at next election. Sad, as he was one of the decent Tories who spoke sense during the leadership contest.

 

[Amiga500]

So your solution is to hand him a new loophole, whilst parliament is dissolved and can't act against it.
Cunning

VONC today.

That means by the 18th Johnson is either forcibly stood down or has stood down.

Corbyn as PM by 19th. VONC in Corbyn on 19th.

Corbyn has the rest of the month to get an extension and has until the 2nd Nov to call a general election.


Look at this farce:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49924755

Lord Pentland will hear arguments on Friday about what the consequences of the prime minister not doing this would be, with the petitioners suggesting "penalties including fine and imprisonment" could be applicable.

Fines? Whoopee-f**king-do.

Given the damage it could do the country would outweigh that of any spy charged with treason, a bullet in the back of his head would be more applicable.


Although this holds some promise:

The judge will rule on this initial part of the case on Monday, after which a panel of Inner House judges will consider whether the court could use its "nobile officium" power to effectively sign a letter to European leaders if Mr Johnson refuses to do so.

But we need that decision by the 16th - rolling on till near end of the month puts it into no mans land.