A Political Thread

[Which Tyler]

A collegue legitimately just tried the line Cameron said 'out means out' and we should go to WTO lines and just spouted out the same thing when I pointed out nobody on leave actually campaigned for that.....

This is supposed to be a person who can actually engage in critical thinking...

Err... Cameron campaigned for remain...

Elsewhere, this is a little on the long side, but a decent summary of the remain argument: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Remai...is-what-is-best-for-the-UK/answers/154093759?

 

[ncurd]

Err... Cameron campaigned for remain...

Yeah that's what I said I even added 'so what you saying is I should trust the guy who campaigns against something not the person who campaigns for'.

Even then I'm unsure how the WA (which at the time all I was saying was if they agreed to it we wouldn't be in the current mess) doesn't constitute 'out mean out.

I mean we won't be members of the EU and I assume we aren't actually going to cease trade with them and we'll want a better trade agreement than WTO......we'll also want to do this smoothly rather than abruptly so not to cause massive disruption as people get use to the new rules. I mean this is all common sense if we are actually are going to leave the EU right?

 

[Reiser99]

Thing is they rarely outright lie, it's more leaving out inconvenient facts.

Take this for example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49563957

Dominic Raab says that an extension would cost the U.K £1bn a month. Now it's technically true we pay £1bn, but apparently we get around £744m back from the E.U afterwards. So the real figure is £256m. Most sensible people would say that he's lying, but he'll claim that technically what he said is true. They have absolute no shame about misleading the public. Johnson said that the government is trying to get a deal when at the same time Cummings has apparently said the whole thing is a waste of time and there no chance of a deal.

However we know politicians do this, Labour does, the rest do. It's the nature of politics. What that means is it requires voters to stay informed and question these statements, making their mind up after they have assessed the facts. This is the problem. Yes it would be nice if we lived in a world where our politicians tell us the truth, but when we know they don't we have to find the truth for ourselves and I'd say 90% of voters don't.

 

[McTallshort]

A collegue legitimately just tried the line Cameron said 'out means out' and we should go to WTO lines and just spouted out the same thing when I pointed out nobody on leave actually campaigned for that.....

This is supposed to be a person who can actually engage in critical thinking...

People who disagree with you are not always stupid or wrong

 

[ncurd]

People who disagree with you are not always stupid or wrong

This is true,

In this case sorry but no he's failed at critical thinking, he's decided that he wants to believe the person campaigning against a thing happening, never actually said such detail (going to WTO), than people who were campaiging for said thing to happen and said there would always be a deal advocating models such as Norway (both leave campaigns heavilly posited this rather than no deal).

He can decide what he meant by his vote but to suggest no-deal was the promised implementation of the referendum is flat out wrong.



Incidentally we've also since had a general election (which trumps an advisory referendum constitutionally) in which the largest two parties campaigned and have manifesto's to leave with a deal. There is zero mandate for no deal.

 

[ncurd]

However we know politicians do this, Labour does, the rest do. It's the nature of politics. What that means is it requires voters to stay informed and question these statements, making their mind up after they have assessed the facts. This is the problem. Yes it would be nice if we lived in a world where our politicians tell us the truth, but when we know they don't we have to find the truth for ourselves and I'd say 90% of voters don't.

You also need to wary about Chinese whispers sometimes a politicians says a thing that the truth and by the time its spun a billion times and have little to do with original context.

Take Swinson the other week, she says Corbyn can't command a majority in the house of commons and they need a unity candidate instead and therefore Corbn's plan wouldn't work. This quickly became Swinson rejected his plan and said she wouldn't work with him.

Or Cameroon during the campaign, he says the EU has been one of the reasons for stability and pece within Europe since the second world war. This is now spun as Cameron said WW3 will occur if we leave the EU.



Which is why I always prefer to listen to what politicians actually say and then fact check them. And I am trying more to challenge people on that front. Loads of people tried to tell Corbyn supported a second referendum months/years ago but when I asked them to provide evidence of him saying it they never could.

 

[ncurd]

Meanwhile, the extcrement has hit the fan in terms of Johnson trying to hold a majority within the commons. He is now reliant on Independents and Rebels of other parties to get any legislation through.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49570682

 

[Which Tyler]

We should all take a moment to recognise the genius of Cameron's fixed term parliament act, stability has truly been ensured.

 

[General Melchett]

It's starting to get interesting. Looks like Labour won't support BoJo's snap election request because they don't want one on his terms and they want him to own this mess. They will insist that he asks for another extension until 31 January and there for to be a less rushed election before then. If blocking No deal gets passed then he could well be snookered as he promised 31 October, no ifs no buts.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

A lot of the electorate seem quite content with petty points scoring and the prime minister acting like a clown. I personally expect the leader of the country to at the very least act with dignity and have an aura of respectability, whether they actually are is another matter. Johnson can't even be bothered to brush his ******* hair. He's well known as a compulsive liar and has relied on a bumbling persona to mask the fact he is simply an arrogant *******. It is sad how low a standard we now hold leaders to and how many seem to even revel and prefer this low standard.

I've had debates with colleagues and the response to the fact Johnson lies is all politicians lie. The response to the fact that he doesn't give 2 shits about the country or anyone in it is that no politicians do. Every failing is made to not be a failing by simply claiming everyone else is the same. Yes politicians on the whole are a lot of lying, self serving scum but even within that category you have degrees of scumminess and Johnson is right there at the top (bottom?) of this. No integrity, no regard for the truth and entirely self serving. These same people will reel off lie and lie about the EU without a second though but then demand the most stringent facts for anything in it's favour. If it's pointed out their claims are wrong, well then fact checkers are also liars. The same as with Trumpers, there is a bubble in which no outside information is allowed to permeate and they have isolated themselves from the world.

Hell you can even show videos and campaign ads showing that no deal was never the main plan and they will deny it. It's gone from we will get a Norway type deal and it will be so easy because we hold all the cards and the EU will be falling over themselves to give us everything we want. Remains said that wouldn't happen but that was just project fear. It then changed to we will get a less favourable deal but it still won't harm the economy or anything, claims that wasn't true were project fear. It then became we will get no deal but it won't hurt the economy and claims to the contrary were project fear. Now it is we will suffer short term but will flourish long term and claims to the contrary are project fear. What next? We actually needed a recession to balance out the last decade of economic boom...? Watch this space in a year or so if we crash out...

 

[ncurd]

Actually the last decade hasn't been an economic boom it's 2019 your talking about post cold war period up to the 2007-8 financial crisis. Since then we've been relatively stagnant once the recession were over.

 

[Reiser99]

From what I've gathered following this today, if MP's genuinely want to stop no deal, they have to vote through this bill, which will force Johnson to try and call an election and then not give it to him. At this point he then either has to act contrary to the constitution or step down. Labour voting for an election would really be idiotic.

 

[Which Tyler]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/b...up-as-boris-johnson-loses-his-majority/03/09/



In what is undoubtedly a first, the currency was buoyed by the sitting government losing its majority as Tory Phillip Lee defected to the Liberal Democrats today, losing Boris Johnson his working majority of one with the DUP.

The pound, which had been plummeting at the twists and turns of Boris Johnson's no-deal Brexit threat, had slumped to its lowest level against the US dollar since 1985, surpassing a previous 2017 low to be worth less than 1.20 dollars.

But following the news that Johnson had lost his majority, it recovered again in what will be a major embarrassment for the Conservative Prime Minister, and leapt back to $1.207, where it ended last night

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Actually the last decade hasn't been an economic boom it's 2019 your talking about post cold war period up to the 2007-8 financial crisis. Since then we've been relatively stagnant once the recession were over.

That was the point, see previous bits about Brexiters twisting facts or outright making **** up to support whatever they are peddling at the time.

 

[General Melchett]

I can't help but get the feeling that things are starting to crumble for BoJo and co. His options will disappear day by day, no deal blocked tonight, election rejected tomorrow and no incoming VONC. Assuming he won't resign and go down in history as the PM with the shortest reign, he'll either have to go back on his word and ask the EU for another extension or go for a nuclear option.

 

[General Melchett]

That was the point, see previous bits about Brexiters twisting facts or outright making **** up to support whatever they are peddling at the time.

The ironic thing is that not once can I remember Donald Tusk lying, fact twisting or trash talking about British politicians over the past three years and yet he and others are repeatedly slammed by Tories and Farage for being a nasty unelected Brussels bureaucrats. I know who I would rather be governed by.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Corbyn has just had Boris' pants down

Tories in shambles

 

[Reiser99]

So last time MP's voted to take control under Theresa May they won the vote by 1. Today it's 27.

 

[Which Tyler]

Motion passes (27), back benches have control tomorrow.
BJ invokes FTPA to request a GE whilst blaming Corbyn for it.
Sound a like hes still refusing to request an extension if legally forced to do so.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Lost his first vote as prime minister.

That's got to be a first. What happens if Labour don't give him his election?