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Not all voters are savvy and many are impressionable and easily influenced.

Most are thick as chump and as easily led around as a dog on a lead when you appeal to the lowest common denominator.

If some clown with 3 teeth on Jeremy Kyle said that Brexit is good 'cos some Europeen took his job after he told the boss to f*kk off and then the dirty Europeen shagged his sister/wife (not necessarily two different people); I'd reckon a scary proportion of the f**kwits around the place would conclude that Brexit = good without bothering to look any further.
 
Most are thick as chump and as easily led around as a dog on a lead when you appeal to the lowest common denominator.

If some clown with 3 teeth on Jeremy Kyle said that Brexit is good 'cos some Europeen took his job after he told the boss to f*kk off and then the dirty Europeen shagged his sister/wife (not necessarily two different people); I'd reckon a scary proportion of the f**kwits around the place would conclude that Brexit = good without bothering to look any further.

Thick as chump is probably a better way to describe it. Democracy can be a dangerous thing with many people not fit to vote.

I would love to divide the UK into two parts with the right wing multi millionaire toffs like BJ, JRM etc. ringfenced and being made to live in harmony with all the thick racist chavs who they influenced with their nationalistic anti-EU arguments.
 
Reese Mogg wants to suspend parliament so that no deal Brexit happens/can't be voted down.

#Sovereignity

Surely that would require a majority of MPs to approve it which won't happen because 70% of MPs were/are pro-Remain.

I find it hilarious when these toffs claim that we are ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels when the shower in Westminster ain't any better.
 
Surely that would require a majority of MPs to approve it which won't happen because 70% of MPs were/are pro-Remain.

I find it hilarious when these toffs claim that we are ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels when the shower in Westminster ain't any better.

I think I read JRM suggesting the PM use her Executive Prerogative power to suspend Parliament. Very unlikely otherwise she sets a very dangerous prescedent.
 
I think I read JRM suggesting the PM use her Executive Prerogative power to suspend Parliament. Very unlikely otherwise she sets a very dangerous prescedent.

Yeah, she asks the Queen to suspend parliament and all business is basically wiped away, not even postponed itself.
 
Politicians 'should' have a responsibility to present facts, information and opinions to the best of their knowledge otherwise it's misrepresentation. Not all voters are savvy and many are impressionable and easily influenced. In the case of General Elections, political parties have to publish manifestos so that they can be held to account on their promises. In the case of the 2016 referendum there was no such requirement - it was like the wild west.
I understand why you place responsibility on the politicians, but i fail to see why you don't place any responsibility at all with the voters.

Take brexit for example: it wasn't that they presented a believable plan to execute the departure and that turned out to be a lie or a misconception. They presented nothing and people still voted for them.
I can't feel sorry for them.

I've lived in a few countries and the difference most of the times comes not through their politicians, but from the people who elect those politicians.

I couldnt help noticing the swedish flag in your profile. I take it you are familiar with the toblerone affair.
That very same incident, with the exact level of exposure, would have been a non-issue in quite a lot of countries. But the people in Sweden were smart enough to make a point, and a strong one about it, and that translates to more and better oversight, which translates to institutional strength which translates to foreign direct investment (among other things).
It was not the media, it was not the politicians, it was the people who made a difference. I could grab a newspaper from pretty much 90% of the countries in the world and find something just as bad that has little or no consequence to the perpetrator because most of the people do not care or care too little to act on it.
People in Sweden saw something that, although rather small looked bad, and voted accordingly.

In the case of General Elections, political parties have to publish manifestos so that they can be held to account on their promises. In the case of the 2016 referendum there was no such requirement - it was like the wild west.
if you are talking about the UK, i have no idea. In every single democracy in the American continent that is just not true. There is no accountability in the strict sense. The loss of credibility and how that translates (or not) to votes in the next election is the only downside to lying. Obama promised to close guantanamo, Lula promised to fight corruption, Macri promised not to increase public services fees.... the list is endless.

Same goes for pretty much every continental European country i am aware of.
 
I understand why you place responsibility on the politicians, but i fail to see why you don't place any responsibility at all with the voters.

Take brexit for example: it wasn't that they presented a believable plan to execute the departure and that turned out to be a lie or a misconception. They presented nothing and people still voted for them.
I can't feel sorry for them.

I've lived in a few countries and the difference most of the times comes not through their politicians, but from the people who elect those politicians.

I couldnt help noticing the swedish flag in your profile. I take it you are familiar with the toblerone affair.
That very same incident, with the exact level of exposure, would have been a non-issue in quite a lot of countries. But the people in Sweden were smart enough to make a point, and a strong one about it, and that translates to more and better oversight, which translates to institutional strength which translates to foreign direct investment (among other things).
It was not the media, it was not the politicians, it was the people who made a difference. I could grab a newspaper from pretty much 90% of the countries in the world and find something just as bad that has little or no consequence to the perpetrator because most of the people do not care or care too little to act on it.
People in Sweden saw something that, although rather small looked bad, and voted accordingly.


if you are talking about the UK, i have no idea. In every single democracy in the American continent that is just not true. There is no accountability in the strict sense. The loss of credibility and how that translates (or not) to votes in the next election is the only downside to lying. Obama promised to close guantanamo, Lula promised to fight corruption, Macri promised not to increase public services fees.... the list is endless.

Same goes for pretty much every continental European country i am aware of.

The voters definitely need to take some of the responsibility. However like everything since the way it was run and how the whole process worked was a shambles. I honestly believe this will go down as the biggest political embarrassment in history. Trump seems less ridiculous than Brexit now.
 
I understand why you place responsibility on the politicians, but i fail to see why you don't place any responsibility at all with the voters.

I also didn't
I understand why you place responsibility on the politicians, but i fail to see why you don't place any responsibility at all with the voters.

Take brexit for example: it wasn't that they presented a believable plan to execute the departure and that turned out to be a lie or a misconception. They presented nothing and people still voted for them.
I can't feel sorry for them.

I've lived in a few countries and the difference most of the times comes not through their politicians, but from the people who elect those politicians.

I couldnt help noticing the swedish flag in your profile. I take it you are familiar with the toblerone affair.
That very same incident, with the exact level of exposure, would have been a non-issue in quite a lot of countries. But the people in Sweden were smart enough to make a point, and a strong one about it, and that translates to more and better oversight, which translates to institutional strength which translates to foreign direct investment (among other things).
It was not the media, it was not the politicians, it was the people who made a difference. I could grab a newspaper from pretty much 90% of the countries in the world and find something just as bad that has little or no consequence to the perpetrator because most of the people do not care or care too little to act on it.
People in Sweden saw something that, although rather small looked bad, and voted accordingly.


if you are talking about the UK, i have no idea. In every single democracy in the American continent that is just not true. There is no accountability in the strict sense. The loss of credibility and how that translates (or not) to votes in the next election is the only downside to lying. Obama promised to close guantanamo, Lula promised to fight corruption, Macri promised not to increase public services fees.... the list is endless.

Same goes for pretty much every continental European country i am aware of.

I don't agree that all voters need to take responsibility but would agree that some should take a share of it. The lion's share lies with the politicians as it was them who decided to have the referendum in the first place. They are in charge of overseeing the entire process (from campaigning to voting) and while I agree Governments can be voted out at the next election if they don't deliver on promises, referenda are quite different and usually 'once in a lifetime' which means the rules and governance around campaigning (set by politicians) should be more robust. I am dismayed that politicians seem obsessed with honouring the result of 2016 rather looking at fixing the process which in retrospect was fundamentally flawed and broken.
 
I don't agree that all voters need to take responsibility
Why on earth not?
The concept of power being tied with responsibility/accountability goes from Plato to bloody spiderman. It's arguably the oldest and universally accepted truths in political analysis.
They had the power to vote, why on earth aren't they (some of them at least) responsible for the result they themselves created?
Particularly in this day and age where access to information is virtually free and infinite.

The lion's share lies with the politicians as it was them who decided to have the referendum in the first place.
Using that logic, the politicians wouldn't have been able to decide to have the referendum if it weren't for the voters.
 
And just when you thought Brexit couldn't get anymore ridiculous, you realise it was a failure of imagination on your part.

 
Why on earth not?
The concept of power being tied with responsibility/accountability goes from Plato to bloody spiderman. It's arguably the oldest and universally accepted truths in political analysis.
They had the power to vote, why on earth aren't they (some of them at least) responsible for the result they themselves created?
Particularly in this day and age where access to information is virtually free and infinite.


Using that logic, the politicians wouldn't have been able to decide to have the referendum if it weren't for the voters.

Deary me - did you read my post properly? I said 'some' but not 'all' voters should take responsibility. Many voters did their homework, weighed up the arguments and voted in good faith to remain. How can they be held responsible for the result? That was a rhetorical question btw :)
 
Deary me - did you read my post properly? I said 'some' but not 'all' voters should take responsibility.
Dear me indeed.
You said some voters but not all should take the responsibility. Focus on those who should not and about those alone.
Why should a voter, ay voter, shoudn't be responsible for his vote?
The idea of having a vote and not being responsible for the consequences of that vote is nothing short of ludicrous.

That was a rhetorical question btw
Those only work when you have the right answer.
 
Dear me indeed.
You said some voters but not all should take the responsibility. Focus on those who should not and about those alone.
Why should a voter, ay voter, shoudn't be responsible for his vote?
The idea of having a vote and not being responsible for the consequences of that vote is nothing short of ludicrous.


Those only work when you have the right answer.

I've explained myself clearly and am bored of correcting you. How can someone who weighed up the arguments on both sides and decided in good faith decided to vote remain be responsible for the result which in the end was to leave?! I see you are now twisting it and saying it's about being responsible for their 'vote' (which nobody can dispute) and not the overall result which was my original point. You're clearly one of those looking for a petty squabble. Have yourself a great weekend :D
 
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