A Political Thread

[Amiga500]

People voted for different reasons and for different ideas of what Brexit would be and 52% to 48% shows how divided the country is on Brexit. We also have a conservative party that is divided on Brexit, a Labour party divided on Brexit, and then lots of smaller parties with either no real influence or who only care about their small corner of Britain.

Exactly. That vile witch is standing up and proclaiming she is delivering the Brexit the people asked for - is she? How does she know? Worse - she absolutely refuses to go back to those same people and verify that what she is proposing to deliver is what they wanted. A f**king power monger is what she is.

A bigger group said "Leave" to the question: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

There is an awful lot of extrapolation to get from "Leave" to a several hundred page withdrawal document - and its absolutely ridiculous and in no way democratic that the word "Leave" is being taken as sufficient to mean the people don't want to examine what "Leave" would actually entail before confirming that is what they want to do.


An approximate equivalent is answering the question "Do you want to buy a new car?" with "Yes", at the time of saying yes you don't know; (1) how big the car is, (2) how quick the car is, (3) what the car looks like, (4) how many seats does it have, (5) how much fuel does it use and last but not least (6) how much does the car cost - but you are being expected to fully and wholly commit to paying for whatever you get on the basis of your original "yes".

Utterly f**king ridiculous. Do politicians really wonder why people hold them in such contempt when they try to justify the above as democratic? That vile witch being head of the list for trying to justify the above.

 

[Amiga500]

But that's a loaded Referendum, two choices to leave one to remain, that would be stupid

Easily solved. Preferential voting.


The stupidity of the original referendum question providing so little detail to scope what the majority actually thought is a large part of the current farce.


If the electorate are supposed to be informed enough to make the decision - then ask them what they want out of it. If they aren't informed enough to make the decision - then they aren't fit to elect representatives either. So replace the current incompetents with experts in each field - meritocracy instead of representative democracy.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

The remain option better be an option on any 2nd referendum and I would reduce the voting age to 16 and make it compulsory for people to vote or face a fine.

 

[Reiser99]

The remain option better be an option on any 2nd referendum and I would reduce the voting age to 16 and make it compulsory for people to vote or face a fine.

Will never happen as firstly it would increase chances of remain and secondly it's apparently undemocratic to make people stop being lazy and participate in democracy.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Will never happen as firstly it would increase chances of remain and secondly it's apparently undemocratic to make people stop being lazy and participate in democracy.

All bets are off if Parliament can't break the deadlock, so never say never if it were to come to a 2nd referendum. We should not be bound by the 1st referendum.

Well maybe not fine the 18 under in my proposed reduction in the age, be a bit mean taking their pocket money away for a decision that would have a massive impact on their lives.

 

[Reiser99]

True our politicians have never really thought about future generations. It's always been about the next election and no further.

 

[Which Tyler]

Exactly. That vile witch is standing up and proclaiming she is delivering the Brexit the people asked for - is she? How does she know? Worse - she absolutely refuses to go back to those same people and verify that what she is proposing to deliver is what they wanted. A f**king power monger is what she is.

A bigger group said "Leave" to the question: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

There is an awful lot of extrapolation to get from "Leave" to a several hundred page withdrawal document - and its absolutely ridiculous and in no way democratic that the word "Leave" is being taken as sufficient to mean the people don't want to examine what "Leave" would actually entail before confirming that is what they want to do.


An approximate equivalent is answering the question "Do you want to buy a new car?" with "Yes", at the time of saying yes you don't know; (1) how big the car is, (2) how quick the car is, (3) what the car looks like, (4) how many seats does it have, (5) how much fuel does it use and last but not least (6) how much does the car cost - but you are being expected to fully and wholly commit to paying for whatever you get on the basis of your original "yes".

Utterly f**king ridiculous. Do politicians really wonder why people hold them in such contempt when they try to justify the above as democratic? That vile witch being head of the list for trying to justify the above.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

Easily solved. Preferential voting.

"Preferential voting what does that mean?"

The stupidity of the original referendum question providing so little detail to scope what the majority actually thought is a large part of the current farce.

"Well we were told it would be Armaghgedon if there was a leave vote the majority still voted leave"

If the electorate are supposed to be informed enough to make the decision - then ask them what they want out of it. If they aren't informed enough to make the decision - then they aren't fit to elect representatives either. So replace the current incompetents with experts in each field - meritocracy instead of representative democracy.

"I see you have already decided who is right, and who is wrong, so how could someone like you debate or ever come to a compromise Negotiations will inevitably lead to compromise"

 

[General Melchett]

A second ref is inevitable. She won't run in the next GE and won't call a snap GE as there would be too much pressure for her to step aside - she is hell bent on clinging onto power. Her deal will get voted down badly and she'll be forced to extend article 50 and go to the people again as the only way to break the impasse. She has ruled out a second ref many times but is also partial to a U-turn.

Honestly, this long standing right wing Euro-sceptic group is like the tumour of the Tory party and the disease now has spread throughout the country. They should just F-off and join UKIP as they are effectively the same 'single issue' shower of multi millionaire knobs.

 

[Amiga500]

"I see you have already decided who is right, and who is wrong, so how could someone like you debate or ever come to a compromise Negotiations will inevitably lead to compromise"

Erm? Not sure what you mean - you agree that preferential voting would solve the 3 answer problem or you think I'm not worth debating it with?

 

[Amiga500]

The best line I've seen on the current shenanigans is this:

"The Tories are like a toddler who in order to distract everyone from the fact it has pi$$€ed itself, has decided to $h|t itself."

 

[Bada-Bing!]

A second ref is inevitable. She won't run in the next GE and won't call a snap GE as there would be too much pressure for her to step aside - she is hell bent on clinging onto power. Her deal will get voted down badly and she'll be forced to extend article 50 and go to the people again as the only way to break the impasse. She has ruled out a second ref many times but is also partial to a U-turn.

Honestly, this long standing right wing Euro-sceptic group is like the tumour of the Tory party and the disease now has spread throughout the country. They should just F-off and join UKIP as they are effectively the same 'single issue' shower of multi millionaire knobs.

She also ruled out a GE before calling one and also insisted that the vote would go ahead on Tuesday when it didn't. She's lost all credibility.

The Tories will always tear themselves apart over Europe, just like Labour tears itself apart over the Unions.

 

[General Melchett]

She also ruled out a GE before calling one and also insisted that the vote would go ahead on Tuesday when it didn't. She's lost all credibility.

The Tories will always tear themselves apart over Europe, just like Labour tears itself apart over the Unions.

She must have been very fearful about yesterday's vote hence her offering to stand down before the next GE as a way to generate a few extra votes but the downside is that she's now an even more lame duck PM. If she called a snap GE then I honestly think there would be too much pressure on her to stand down given how badly the last one went. Although safe from a confidence vote, there would cabinet resignations galore if she didn't IMO. If she wants to cling onto power than a second ref is her best bet especially after Parliament votes down her deal and the EU won't budge an inch.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

There are zillions of hypothetical outcomes.

Is one that the Tories could be looking for a new leader during a GE campaign with a mid March polling date?

Thinking badly lost deal vote in mid Jan, followed by immediate successful no confidence in Govt vote triggering GE.

Sounds like a nightmare scenario. Is it feasibly possible?

 

[Aristodemus]

If there is to be a second vote, it should be on how we leave and not if. That vote has already been decided.

The whole thing has become one huge mess and my only real concern in all of this is that it might lead to Corbyn becoming PM, because that would be an absolute disaster for this country.

 

[ncurd]

I think Old Hooker has it right if a vote is called on the deal in parliament.

A preferential vote binding referendum is what May needs to call if she wants to avoid a GE. Options being no deal, May deal and Remain.

Suspect that will go one of three ways,

1) Remain outright wins (48% last time out).
2) No deal least favorite, secondary choice ensure May deal wins
3) May deal least favorite, secondary choice ensure remain wins

I suspect we'll end up with 2


Its May safest bet to stay power and deliver Brexit

 

[ncurd]

If there is to be a second vote, it should be on how we leave and not if. That vote has already been decided.

Remain must be option the people must be able to decide if they think they made wrong decision 3 years ago. That's democracy you must be able to change your mind.

If remain is not an options expect huge wave of spoiled ballot papers calling the entire thing in question.

 

[Aristodemus]

Remain must be option the people must be able to decide if they think they made wrong decision 3 years ago. That's democracy you must be able to change your mind.

If remain is not an options expect huge wave of spoiled ballot papers calling the entire thing in question.

I don't agree with that sentiment at all. Like it or not a vote was made and it should be honoured, that is democracy.

 

[ncurd]

I don't agree with that sentiment at all. Like it or not a vote was made and it should be honoured, that is democracy.

A vote was made in 1975 I say we go by that one.

 

[Thingimubob]

I don't agree with that sentiment at all. Like it or not a vote was made and it should be honoured, that is democracy.

Yeah how dare they undermine democracy...with more democracy