A Political Thread

[pagliaccio_euforico]

That makes no sense whatsoever. It violates the universal principle of equality under the law.


This makes even less sense as, in order to get a conviction you'd need to take the complaint as truthful.


From a political point of view, i can understand why it happens. From a judicial point of view, they are pretending to solve a problem by creating another one.

But it's 100% possible to take the victims word as gospel and say "I'm really sorry but we don't have the evidence to convict, we know this must be very troubling blah blah blah."

That'd be a huge improvement on how we treat (alleged) victims now.

 

[McTallshort]

Do the problems in Argentina mean we can stand the Royal Navy down for a bit?

 

[ncurd]

But it's 100% possible to take the victims word as gospel and say "I'm really sorry but we don't have the evidence to convict, we know this must be very troubling blah blah blah."

That'd be a huge improvement on how we treat (alleged) victims now.

Yup this is more or less the point you need at the point of accusation treat a victim as 100% truthful. It's only at the point you've found them to be lying should they be not considered to be truthful. An accusation should always be taken in good faith.

As the law requires rightly for the burden of proof to be on the accuser we can make victims feel like we don't care or that we think are they lying. Its abosolutely important that victims feel they will be looked after the authorities and they will taken seriously.

Just because a conviction can't be reached doesn't mean they were lying and we shouldn't treat them as such.

These cases will continue a culture of accusing victims as liars even when it's a case that they may have been telling the truth.

 

[ncurd]

This makes even less sense as, in order to get a conviction you'd need to take the complaint as truthful.
.

You need to read why these cases are being reviewed and why convictions are being quashed. Basically the police have withheld evidence that would have likely led to a conviction not being upheld. In one case were messages from the accuser begged the accused for sex on a consistent basis.

That's not to say she wasn't raped on the occasions she said and she should be belived from the police's point of view. But the pressure to increase conviction rates (languishing at 5%) had led to this happening. Not the pressure to belive victims as gospel.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

But it's 100% possible to take the victims word as gospel and say "I'm really sorry but we don't have the evidence to convict, we know this must be very troubling blah blah blah."

That'd be a huge improvement on how we treat (alleged) victims now.

I think I agree with the general message, but i suspect we have a semantic problem. To clarify, what do you mean, exactly, with taking the victims word as gospel?
If you mean that the accusation should be taken seriously and diligently, i agree. If that's not happening it should change, yesterday.
If you mean that the word of the one making the accusation should be bare more weight, judicially speaking, than the one of the accused, then i strongly disagree.
To be even more clear, regardless of the crime, there are two principles that are paramount in 99% of the judicial systems:
1) the burden of proof must remain with whoever makes the accusation, regardless of the crime.
2) innocent until proven guilty

I guess we're on the same page here.

Do the problems in Argentina mean we can stand the Royal Navy down for a bit?

Really? Friendly advice: before you continue with that line of argument i suggest you double check the royal navy's success rate down here.

 

[McTallshort]

1 small war fought. 1 small war won. Not bad that

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

It is true that the two rape cases in question have collapsed due to a failure to comply with "disclosure" (basically make sure anything exculpatory (i.e. that might help the defence)) is made available). This is a very different issue to what I am banging on about with the likes of Ched Evans and possibly forseeing with Paddy Jackson and Olding.

But I'd argue that they are intertwined, as the first article I linked to suggested. In this latest case the Crown and police have aggressively pursued and tried to jail a man who is proven to have been on the receiving end of texts from the victim showing she wanted to have sex. In these circumstances, even excluding knowledge of these text messages, how on earth was sufficient "evidence" scraped together to get this to trial? What evidence could there have been beyond the victims words? I'd contest that there cannot have been any such evidence given the circumstances as we now know them.

The justice system in the past six or so years is making the accused responsible for proving a negative and routinely that is simply not possible. They wouldn't do that for a burglary, a robbery or an attempted murder, so why is this unique approach permitted for sex crimes?

The majority of non-sexual offences either result in no accused being identified or in the Crown "running a red pen" through a case and refusing to progress it due to a lack of evidence. Clearly sexual offences are more emotive and often far more serious than an average crime, but surely the law is the law and must be applied consistently across crime types?

Do the problems in Argentina mean we can stand the Royal Navy down for a bit?

Well given that the new £3.1 billion flagship aircraft carrier leaks 200 litres of water an hour the Royal Navy could do with some spare time in dry docks.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-42406138

 

[GarethGriffiths]

Am i right in thinking that one of the officers was involved in both arrests mentioned?

 

[ncurd]

Am i right in thinking that one of the officers was involved in both arrests mentioned?

Apparently so according to the news earlier I don't know about the 30 under review.

As noted this is might be one bad cop who's going to cause a huge problem in an already problematic area in obtaining justice.

 

[Which Tyler]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...tted-the-gops-tax-cuts-were-deceptively-sold/



President Trump was so excited about passing his first major piece of legislation Wednesday that he blurted out that the Republican Party had misrepresented the entire bill, handing Democrats some potentially troublesome talking points for the 2018 midterm elections.

Speaking at the White House just before the House prepared to sign off on the tax-cuts bill one last time, Trump reveled extensively in his win before turning things over to Vice President Pence to heap praise upon him continuously for a few minutes. It was a thoroughly unique spectacle, even as victory dances and Trump Cabinet meetings go.

But along the way, Trump basically admitted that the GOP's talking points on the bill weren't exactly honest in two major ways.

While talking about the corporate tax rate being cut from 35 percent to 21 percent, Trump said, "That's probably the biggest factor in our plan."

...

 

[Which Tyler]

Remember that UN vote on Jerusalem, where Trump literally behaved like a 3rd rate mafia boss? Threatening repercussions if they vote against him, saying that he'll take it person, and that his rep will be taking names, stating that as the US contributes to the UN budget it expects unquestioning support. Hell, there was even an"are you disrespectful ting me?" in there

That worked well then...

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/12/21/16802604/un-jerusalem-trump-israel-haley

170 nations present, 33 abstain, 9 in support of the US, 128 opposed to the US

The 9:
Guatemala
Honduras
Israel
Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Nauru
Palau
Togo
United States

Israel and the US voting in favour of Israel and the US, then a whole bunch of political ***ans... erm..

Reports are that Australia and Canada were going to support the US, but chose to abstain following Trump's threats

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Remember that UN vote on Jerusalem, where Trump literally behaved like a 3rd rate mafia boss? Threatening repercussions if they vote against him, saying that he'll take it person, and that his rep will be taking names, stating that as the US contributes to the UN budget it expects unquestioning support. Hell, there was even an"are you disrespectful ting me?" in there

That worked well then...

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/12/21/16802604/un-jerusalem-trump-israel-haley

170 nations present, 33 abstain, 9 in support of the US, 128 opposed to the US

The 9:
Guatemala
Honduras
Israel
Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Nauru
Palau
Togo
United States

Israel and the US voting in favour of Israel and the US, then a whole bunch of political ***ans... erm..

Reports are that Australia and Canada were going to support the US, but chose to abstain following Trump's threats

Of the nine countries that voted for the recognition of, four of them are essentially the US, and Guatemala + Honduras depend on us for pretty much everything. I have no idea what Nauru and Togo's motivations were.

Edit: Apparently Togo is part of the Organization ('Merica) of Islamic Cooperation, are they aware of what they just voted on?

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

1 small war fought. 1 small war won. Not bad that

Is that what they teach you guys in history courses these days? Wow.
The royal navy tried to invade Buenos Aires twice and twice got beaten.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

And so America isolates itself even further from the world. It's like Trump wanted to return America to the position it had just before Bush left office and then turn it up to 11. The entire right wing in the US have completely lost the plot, they are so wrapped up in their own perceived superiority they can't see things falling down around them. It's got all the markings of a classic empire falling down due to internal rot, hubris and corruption.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

So Ireland just approved a trump golf course to build a wall protecting itself from raising sea levels.

Yet I thought global warming was a Chinese hoax.

I now consider all Irish to be complicit with the trump administration.

 

[Which Tyler]

https://twitter.com/steven_pifer/status/944199915017818112

#UN Rep @nikkihaley plans reception & will not invite reps of countries that voted for Jerusalem resolution. She will invite those who abstained or were absent; otherwise would be very small party for 9 who voted against. This is American diplomacy at its most petty.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

https://twitter.com/steven_pifer/status/944199915017818112

#UN Rep @nikkihaley plans reception & will not invite reps of countries that voted for Jerusalem resolution. She will invite those who abstained or were absent; otherwise would be very small party for 9 who voted against. This is American diplomacy at its most petty.

woah... just cause your jealous you don't get to be apart of our mighty fine coalition

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

So Ireland just approved a trump golf course to build a wall protecting itself from raising sea levels.

Yet I thought global warming was a Chinese hoax.

I now consider all Irish to be complicit with the trump administration.

To be fair, two of the holes on the course fell into the sea a few years ago and it's Dooonbeg v a few hippies. We've been letting your Bois re

So Ireland just approved a trump golf course to build a wall protecting itself from raising sea levels.

Yet I thought global warming was a Chinese hoax.

I now consider all Irish to be complicit with the trump administration.

It's all the balls going in the water... We're bad at golf again since Rors started preferring celebrity life!

The wall is needed to be fair, two holes fell into the sea a few years ago there, I see the hypocrisy but this wouldn't be news if it was owned by anyone but the Donald. We're involved in yank politics in far more sinister ways anyway, just look at Shannon airport!

 

[GarethGriffiths]

That's one wall built by DT....

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

So Ireland just approved a trump golf course to build a wall protecting itself from raising sea levels.

Yet I thought global warming was a Chinese hoax.

I now consider all Irish to be complicit with the trump administration.

It's normally an 18 hole course but when Trump visits it becomes a 19 hole.