A Political Thread

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I don't really comment on news items that don't have a rugby angle but I don't feel comfortable sitting idly by and saying nothing about the Madrid government's use of riot police against voters in Catalonia.

U.K. state TV reporting it in a very sanitised fashion given their political bias and fears of parallels with Scotland. The main commercial news ITV is far more honest in showing the worst of the unprovoked brutality; as are several international agencies. It could get a lot worse tomorrow if the military is sent in.

Another reminder, if such is required, that basic human rights in the "West" should never be taken for granted or allowed to be snatched away.

 

[ncurd]

BBC online news has been pretty clear on the poor treatment of catolonians.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

BBC online news has been pretty clear on the poor treatment of catolonians.

Yes, but they are highly selective in their use of images. You will not see a woman getting thrown down stairs on the BBC. Or an elderly, white haired woman being wrestled with. Or rubber bullets being fired. Or an officer jumping down and stamping on a protester sitting on the floor.

You will see some of all of this on ITN, RT and Al Jazeera.

EDIT; I take that back, it seems with their latest coverage online the BBC online is now showing some of the images it chose to ignore on its evening TV bulletin. Better late than never, so fair play to them.

 

[ncurd]

Despite the BBC's failing at time they try to toe the line between telling the story and horrifying people for entertainment in the news. Channel 4 are usually trying tondonthe same thing.

Commercial television don't care usually and want people to watch for adverts but care far less about telling a complete and accurate story.

I don't need to see a woman being pushed down the stairs I just need to know it's happening to be disgusted.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

True, but it is not about sensationalism, it is about editorial slant. The nightly BBC bulletin just now showed violence they refused to show earlier. It also abandoned the repeated loaded reference to "separatists" and illegality that they were using earlier in the day. I think they have smelt the wind of change of this one and realised that video of your granny getting clubbed by a state thug with a baton doesn't much fit in with people's views of a "separatist".

The editorial slant on the nightly bulletin makes me think the BBC have been advised by the UK government that Catalonia will declare independence and that Westminster will not denounce it, or vocally back Madrid. Fingers crossed we don't wake up to tanks on the streets tomorrow and a state of emergency.

Rajoy is a muppet doing his best "Chemical Ali" impression talking about the "constant improvement" of Spain. If he or his predecessors had allowed negotiations over this matter, Catalonia would in all likelihood have voted to remain in Spain (like Scotland with the UK). The scenes today will also only make moderate Catalans and Basques consider whether Madrid has their best interests at heart. It also gives the UK a huge trump card over retaining Gibraltar on human rights grounds.

It is not often you will find me compliment Westminster but I think David Cameron was exemplary with his conduct around the Scottish referendum, and a true democrat who refused to fight dirty - even if that trait cost him his job with the second referendum under his watch.

I did laugh today when his party in Scotland adopted a core pro independence argument. Previously to utter such things was suggested as "stirring up grievance" and "anti-English sentiment".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41454566

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I get how the images are terrifying, but every single party involved knew, exactly, what they were getting into.
The PM implied he would use force to stop the elections, the people knew he would do so, and he did.

The PM is not only applying the law, he gave fair warning AND is executing what over 60% of Spaniards want (http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/09/11/59b56da8e5fdea6e518b461f.html).

In a nutshell, the PM doesn't only have the law on his side but most of the people supporting his actions. As long as that is the case he will not care what the public opinion outside Spain is.
Until the laws change, well, part of his job description is to enforce the law and that is what the overwhelming majority of spanish think he is doing. I personally find that law atrocious, but dura lex, sed lex.

In practical terms to the average jane/joe, it would be terrible, if not catastrophic for Cataluña to become independent. Spain will block them from joining the EU which would destroy their economy. They wouldn't be able to export/import anything. They would choke them (economically speaking) to death.

 

[ncurd]

Trust an Argentinian not to be live in the right to self determination established under international law which trumps any Spannish law. The people of Catolonia have the right to vote and separate themselves fro the rest of Spain regardless of how misguided and damaging it might be. If the Spannish goverment respected those rights the seeds of independence might not be as strong as we are seeing right now.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I get how the images are terrifying, but every single party involved knew, exactly, what they were getting into.
The PM implied he would use force to stop the elections, the people knew he would do so, and he did.

The PM is not only applying the law, he gave fair warning AND is executing what over 60% of Spaniards want (http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/09/11/59b56da8e5fdea6e518b461f.html).

In a nutshell, the PM doesn't only have the law on his side but most of the people supporting his actions. As long as that is the case he will not care what the public opinion outside Spain is.
Until the laws change, well, part of his job description is to enforce the law and that is what the overwhelming majority of spanish think he is doing. I personally find that law atrocious, but dura lex, sed lex.

In practical terms to the average jane/joe, it would be terrible, if not catastrophic for Cataluña to become independent. Spain will block them from joining the EU which would destroy their economy. They wouldn't be able to export/import anything. They would choke them (economically speaking) to death.

If you accept that law, and the right of the Spanish government to continue to refuse to negotiate on constitutional matters for decades on end; then there is zero option for Catalans under any circumstances.

That is not compatible with my perception of liberal democracies. If the EU treaties had a vague legal clause from 40 years ago that specified it was indivisable and nobody could leave it then I doubt the Spanish government would cite the law and remain in the EU regardless of circumstances.

Using force against non-violent protestors who were not disrupting commerce or intimidating anyone is also completely disproportionate and Madrid has arguably lost the moral authority over its citizenry with such conduct.

 

[Which Tyler]

Using force against non-violent protestors who were not disrupting commerce or intimidating anyone is also completely disproportionate and Madrid has arguably lost the moral authority over its citizenry with such conduct.

I don't think there's much "arguable" about it. They absolutely have lost any moral high ground here.
They can declare the vote irrelevant or non-binding as much as they like.
Calling it illegal is a step too far (how can voting be illegal?); if Spanish law does say that, then the law is an ass and deserves civil disobedience.
Using force against peaceful protestors and peaceful actions is way too far, let alone this much force.


In other news - WTF happened in Vegas last night?

 

[ncurd]

Emerging picture so far suggest nothing of real note apart from the usual America's 'gun control' is laughable at best.

The problem for Catalonia is that because of the government actions only die hard separatists voted thus greatly scewing the vote in their favour. As noted the government needs to engage rather than dissuade a vote taking place. Look at the Scottish independence referendum we only managed to just squeak on by with that one and Brexit has torn that wound right open with nationalists now saying they have a right to a second vote (which in my book they do one of the major arguments for them staying was they'd stay members of the EU rather than having to leave then reapply). This situation is likely to get worse before it gets better and EU/UN should give Spain a kicking for it they won't because politics.

 

[Which Tyler]

Emerging picture so far suggest nothing of real note apart from the usual America's 'gun control' is laughable at best.

Yeah - got the iPlayer news going now - some random nutter (white though, so there'll be no "lessons to learn") shooting up a concert because he can.

The problem for Catalonia is that because of the government actions only die hard separatists voted thus greatly scewing the vote in their favour. As noted the government needs to engage rather than dissuade a vote taking place. Look at the Scottish independence referendum we only managed to just squeak on by with that one and Brexit has torn that wound right open with nationalists now saying they have a right to a second vote (which in my book they do one of the major arguments for them staying was they'd stay members of the EU rather than having to leave then reapply). This situation is likely to get worse before it gets better and EU/UN should give Spain a kicking for it they won't because politics.

Fair point; but it's 90% in favour of independence with a turnout of 42.3% (alongisde 81% 3 years ago) that's a ridiculously high turnout for an illegal vote that comes complete with state violence and possible reprisals. Not to mention 90-odd polling stations being successfully closed down.
There is enough support that they deserve the right to an adult conversation, proper debate, and an authorised vote.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

A couple of points.

Trust an Argentinian not to be live in the right to self determination established under international law which trumps any Spannish law.

Go **** yourself.
Trust an english.... sorry, no, i will not generalize your stupidity and ignorance to the rest of your countrymen....
Trust an ignoran to be a hypocrite and scream self determination when it suits him and the conveniently forget about it while they were kicking the chagossians out of their islands. Merriam webster should come up with a new term as hypocrite doesn't actually make it justice.
For the record, my views are my own so kindly don't generalize them to all argentines. I am sure a LOT of them will disagree with me.

Your idea of self determination is to go into your house, kick you out by force, and then declare independence. Again, if you wanna see how insincere the self determination argument is just look at what they did in Diego Garcia.
I guess GCSE curricula doesn't include the raping, looting and slave trading done in her majesty's name. Where the was self determination principle in those cases?

The people of Catolonia have the right to vote and separate themselves fro the rest of Spain regardless of how misguided and damaging it might be. If the Spannish goverment respected those rights the seeds of independence might not be as strong as we are seeing right now.

Well, that's not how i understood it. From what i understood there is a legal procedure, this is just not it.

If you accept that law, and the right of the Spanish government to continue to refuse to negotiate on constitutional matters for decades on end; then there is zero option for Catalans under any circumstances.

Here is where we disagree. There are several ways to challenge a law, but in a nutshell you can split them in 3 alternatives

1) Go to justice and challenge the validity of the law
2) Go to parliament and change the law
3) Disregard the law

Cataluña chose option 3 and the outcome was quite predictable. You used the phrase "non-voilent protesters". That is not how it see it. It would be very easy to argue in pretty much any of the liberal democracies you mention that anyone who knowingly breaks the law is violent, legally speaking.
Again, you have legal ways to deal with this, both inside Spain and through international organizations. They chose not to pursue those options and they did so knowing, exactly, what the consequences would be.

And don't misinterpret me, i sincerely believe 3) is a genuine alternative, if and only if you've tried 1) and 2). That is not the case.

I personally agree that there is a, how should i put this, "huge gap", between the alleged crime and the punishment. Having said that, both parties here are idiotic in the way they are managing this.
The PM could have achieved similar results with way less coercive methods. And the Catalonian authorities are, literally, outright lying to the people.
The oddest thing is, that if they had a serious referendum, polls consistently show they would not leave spain.

Let me be crystal clear about one thing: i am not against self determination. I just think the way they chose to pursue the referendum was outright stupid.
I personally couldn't give a flying turd whether Cataluña becomes independent or not.

 

[Which Tyler]

And don't misinterpret me, i sincerely believe 3) is a genuine alternative, if and only if you've tried 1) and 2). That is not the case.

By my understanding - it absolutely is true. This is NOT a movement that has sprung up overnight; it's the best part of a century old as more-or-less the current movement. Though to my understanding the movement was very quashed down under Franco

 

[ncurd]

A couple of points.

Go **** yourself.
Trust an english.... sorry, no, i will not generalize your stupidity and ignorance to the rest of your countrymen....
Trust an ignoran to be a hypocrite and scream self determination when it suits him and the conveniently forget about it while they were kicking the chagossians out of their islands. Merriam webster should come up with a new term as hypocrite doesn't actually make it justice.

Your idea of self determination is to go into your house, kick you out by force, and then declare independence. Again, if you wanna see how insincere the self determination argument is just look at what they did in Diego Garcia.
I guess GCSE curricula doesn't include the raping, looting and slave trading done in her majesty's name. Where the was self determination principle in those cases?

Nah what we need to need to is right wrongs of ancestors from nearly 200 years ago but give no actual fucks of people who have been living there for generations.

Do you know how ****** up the world would be if we tried to write histories wrongs? By all countries and Argentina is hardly the hotbed of brilliant enlightened culture.

 

[ncurd]

I (and other British) get sick and tired of being told we are ignorant of our past mistakes but somehow accountable because of people even our grandparents probably didn't even know.

The Empire and some of the things the country did under its banner were pretty abhorrent at times. But I can't nor anyone else do anything about them now all we can do is not repeat the same mistakes.

In turn we have to look after those who through no fault of their own are caught in centuries old disputes. Uprooting a bunch of people who have never known any other home for things they have no control over.

We can't right the wrongs of the past but we can damn well stop people from repeating them or causing further misery.


Are we ideal Hell No our misadventures in the middle east are testiment to that but I will defend our position when we are right.

 

[ncurd]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagossians

Okay I was unfamiliar with this situation (seriously nobody can be expected to know everything about their country). In this case I'll point to High Court stating they should be allowed back and the narrow margin in which the government won when it went to the Law Lords (this was before our Supreme Court was established). But I'm no hypocrite and they should absolutely be allowed to return to their homes complication due to military bases established by the US should be settled amicably.

 

[ncurd]

Yeah - got the iPlayer news going now - some random nutter (white though, so there'll be no "lessons to learn") shooting up a concert because he can.

Fair point; but it's 90% in favour of independence with a turnout of 42.3% (alongisde 81% 3 years ago) that's a ridiculously high turnout for an illegal vote that comes complete with state violence and possible reprisals. Not to mention 90-odd polling stations being successfully closed down.
There is enough support that they deserve the right to an adult conversation, proper debate, and an authorised vote.

Absolutely and part od Spains determination to not allow a free and open referendum is the fact they know they'd probably lose. Cameron went to Scotland knowing he'd likely win and made the same gamble with th EU and lost. Trying to make a decisive victory before it went too much the other way.

As noted the separatists have been trying for ages to go down the legal route and have only been met with the word NO from Spanish government this was a last resort to peacefully show what wanted.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

What in the Spanish legal and political structure allows a Catalan majority to change the law when such a change is opposed by the majority in Madrid. My understanding is that there is no such mechanism or possibility. The Catalans have even had any attempt to enhance their devolved powers rejected despite a democratic mandate to negotiate that.

42% turnout is still poor, but they can easily argue that hundreds of thousands of ballots were stolen and that many voters will have stayed away due to the intimidation of the Madrid government forces.

I can't see Catalonia being successful in this, but it could get very ugly, very quickly. A relative of mine is due to fly their this week... great timing.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

But I can't nor anyone else do anything about them now all we can do is not repeat the same mistakes.

You can do something about it, you just chose not to. Not quite the same thing.

Okay I was unfamiliar with this situation

Hence me calling you ignorant, he or she who ignores.

And when your country uses an argument (self determination) that they selectively chose to ignore when it didn't fit their intended goal (Chagos), the rest of the world is entitled to call out its hypocrisy.
And the expulsion of the chagossians wasn't something from the 1500.... it was during the 1970s.
Claiming "I can't nor anyone else do anything about them now" is as sorry poor of an excuse as you can think of.

Imagine showing up in court and telling the judge "mate, i know i've stole and killed the guy, but the money is gone and nothing we do now will bring him back, so why don't we just let it go and i just promise i wont do it again. Deal?"
Brilliant innit?

 

[ncurd]

Hence me calling you ignorant, he or she who ignores.

'Ignores' yet you raised something I was unfamiliar with, I looked it up, read about it and agreed with you its a pretty **** situation. Get off your ******* high horse.