A Political Thread

[Vieux Talonneur]

I have no desire to live in the USA again.

I moan like hell about the UK. But that's my right. I was born here, I live here, I vote and pay my taxes.

But when I reflect, I'm bl**dy glad I was born English There are so many seriously troubled or screwy countries in the world and the good 'ol USA is right up there on that list in so many ways. Although it has many attractions, I no longer have any desire to feed their economy any more tourist $.

Jones Boy, the rest of your post is downright scary. If we want to impress our visitors we show them our gardens, or if we're feeling particularly saucy maybe a redecorated room. We don't tend to whip out a personal arsenal.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

@mole, maybe you can help me out.

I don't have a problem with people bearing arms, but just like using heavy machinery, flying a plane, moving toxic materials or selling drugs (prescription) it sound reasonable that, given the potential consequences of mishandling those, you want to have certain checks and balances in place before you let people use heavy machinery, fly a plane, etc.
Even the constitution uses the phrase "well regulated militia".
Why is there such a controversy for this to be, well, regulated.

I am not asking for some weird obscure test, but basic stuff: criminal record, being of sane mind, etc. Things that would most likely be checked if you were to work as, say, a commercial pilot.

Why is it so hard for some to accept some (minor) checks when it comes to guns? I've asked this to plenty of usanians and i've never got an answer i could understand.
Is it an acquired right issue?

 

[McTallshort]

The whole 2nd Amendment thing is a total red herring. It has nothing to do with gun ownership, the real factors driving the pro gun mindset in the States are:

1. A powerful pro gun lobby group funded by weapons manufacturers.
2. The culture of fear that American media seems to thrive on.
3. The access to military grade firearms to pretty much everybody.
4. lots of films with guns in, that make guns kind of cool.
5. A poor healthcare system that tends to miss people with mental health problems.

The 2nd Amendment was written 300 years ago for a scenario that existed at the time with firearms that existed at the time but somehow its become a rallying call for the NRA when the real reasons people want to own guns is because they think they are cool or they are terrified the black guy in the next town is going to invade his home backed with a herd of zombies, all of which is backed by propaganda peddled by the likes of Smith and Western or Colt. The people who scream loudest about 2nd amendment rights and keeping their guns are being repressed into a mindset of fear and hatred by the very people selling them the guns.

And I say all of this as someone who actually legally owns firearms in the UK.

 

[McTallshort]

The whole 2nd Amendment thing is a total red herring. It has nothing to do with gun ownership, the real factors driving the pro gun mindset in the States are:

1. A powerful pro gun lobby group funded by weapons manufacturers.
2. The culture of fear that American media seems to thrive on.
3. The access to military grade firearms to pretty much everybody.
4. lots of films with guns in, that make guns kind of cool.
5. A poor healthcare system that tends to miss people with mental health problems.

The 2nd Amendment was written 300 years ago for a scenario that existed at the time with firearms that existed at the time but somehow its become a rallying call for the NRA when the real reasons people want to own guns is because they think they are cool or they are terrified the black guy in the next town is going to invade his home backed with a herd of zombies, all of which is backed by propaganda peddled by the likes of Smith and Western or Colt. The people who scream loudest about 2nd amendment rights and keeping their guns are being repressed into a mindset of fear and hatred by the very people selling them the guns.

And I say all of this as someone who actually legally owns firearms in the UK.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I can't give any rational logic for why Americans are so resistant to gun control even though it has proven to be successful in other countries.
Some claims that I have seen on social media:
Gun control is for fascists, yet these same people have no problem with ICE agents rounding up illegal immigrants when they are trying to avoid the path of a hurricane. Fascism when it affects white people; bad. When it affects brown people; good?
We try to control drugs and look how that works. It takes an especially American philosophy to refuse to acknowledge how other countries have reduced issues in either of these issues. Countries that have reduced penalties for drug use and possession while offering rehab through healthcare have a lot less drug related issues than we do. Same thing goes with those that have limited access to guns. It's almost as if Americans are stupid.
Not exactly a gun-control counter-argument but a reason to not discuss it. People are claiming you are a bad person if you use yesterday's events to advocate for gun control since you are politicizing a tragedy. Yet these people don't give a **** about the victims until after they died (they are all right-wingers who don't believe in healthcare or social welfare programs) and they need an excuse to silence people they disagree with politically. Similar to the flag protesting, they know that the other side has a valid point they are just desperate to avoid the actual discussion. If the people in Vegas died because of poor access to healthcare or starvations these fuckers would say it's their own fault for not providing for themselves.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

The whole 2nd Amendment thing is a total red herring. It has nothing to do with gun ownership, the real factors driving the pro gun mindset in the States are:

1. A powerful pro gun lobby group funded by weapons manufacturers.
2. The culture of fear that American media seems to thrive on.
3. The access to military grade firearms to pretty much everybody.
4. lots of films with guns in, that make guns kind of cool.
5. A poor healthcare system that tends to miss people with mental health problems.

The 2nd Amendment was written 300 years ago for a scenario that existed at the time with firearms that existed at the time but somehow its become a rallying call for the NRA when the real reasons people want to own guns is because they think they are cool or they are terrified the black guy in the next town is going to invade his home backed with a herd of zombies, all of which is backed by propaganda peddled by the likes of Smith and Western or Colt. The people who scream loudest about 2nd amendment rights and keeping their guns are being repressed into a mindset of fear and hatred by the very people selling them the guns.

And I say all of this as someone who actually legally owns firearms in the UK.

I don't agree that the 2nd amendment is a total red Herring in understanding Gun ownership in the US. I think it's the very foundation upon which mass gun ownership in the US was borne from. It's very presence wove gun ownnership into the fabric of American political and everyday culture and has normalised It in the US over the last 300 years (edit - in fact 2nd Amendment is 226 years; it was included 4 years after the Constititution was signed in 1787 - showing how relatively young the US is.)

From there the other reasons you have given are relevant to modern day gun ownership, but to dismiss 2nd amendment as irrelevant is to not understand the very foundations and history which the US rose from.

 

[McTallshort]

I don't agree that the 2nd amendment is a total red Herring in understanding Gun ownership in the US. I think it's the very foundation upon which mass gun ownership in the US was borne from. It's very presence wove gun ownnership into the fabric of American political and everyday culture and has normalised It in the US over the last 300 years.

From there the other reasons you have given are relevant to modern day gun ownership, but to dismiss 2nd amendment as irrelevant is to not understand the very foundations and history which the US rose from.

Go back 40 years....the NRA was just a hunting/shooting group a bit like BASC in the UK. Then came the lobbying. The cold war still in full flow and the most sold firearm in the world was the commie AK-47 after that it was the free arm of the west the FN FAL or in Britain the SLR. No body wanted to buy American guns. The M-16 was a product of a flawed procurement program and nobody else wanted it. Browning (Belgium) Beretta (Italy) and Glock cornered the military hand gun market. The GPMG (again Browning) was the choice of most militaries standard support weapon because the M60 was such a **** weapon. America could sell jet fighters but it couldnt sell small arms for **** so what do you do? Well sell them to the general public! What sell a semi automatic rifle to the public? Errrr yes of course Americans have a right bare arms! Do they? Yes look at the 300 year old amendment! Oh right. Does that mean i can blat away at a range with the same guns from the Terminator? Yes its your right! And dont let those libtard ******** in congress tell you otherwise!

The 2nd Amendment is a tool to sell guns. Nothing more

 

[The Jones Boy]

If we want to impress our visitors we show them our gardens, or if we're feeling particularly saucy maybe a redecorated room. We don't tend to whip out a personal arsenal.

hahahaahah Ain't that the truth.
One of the oft repeated lines Americans used to make about the UK was that the Police do not carry guns so how are they supposed to enforce the law?
"Are they gonna shout,"Stop... or I'll say STOP again."
Then much guffawing and laughter.

I tried to point out that the bad guys don't have guns either and if you choose not to stop and you get caught then you're likely to get some gravel rash and a bit of a face massage.
That didn't cut it, no guns apparenly meant no chance to keep order.
I gave up arguing, it never went anywhere good.

 

[McTallshort]

hahahaahah Ain't that the truth.
One of the oft repeated lines Americans used to make about the UK was that the Police do not carry guns so how are they supposed to enforce the law?
"Are they gonna shout,"Stop... or I'll say STOP again."
Then much guffawing and laughter.

I tried to point out that the bad guys don't have guns either and if you choose not to stop and you get caught then you're likely to get some gravel rash and a bit of a face massage.
That didn't cut it, no guns apparenly meant no chance to keep order.
I gave up arguing, it never went anywhere good.

Robin Williams?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Go back 40 years....the NRA was just a hunting/shooting group a bit like BASC in the UK. Then came the lobbying. The cold war still in full flow and the most sold firearm in the world was the commie AK-47 after that it was the free arm of the west the FN FAL or in Britain the SLR. No body wanted to buy American guns. The M-16 was a product of a flawed procurement program and nobody else wanted it. Browning (Belgium) Beretta (Italy) and Glock cornered the military hand gun market. The GPMG (again Browning) was the choice of most militaries standard support weapon because the M60 was such a **** weapon. America could sell jet fighters but it couldnt sell small arms for **** so what do you do? Well sell them to the general public! What sell a semi automatic rifle to the public? Errrr yes of course Americans have a right bare arms! Do they? Yes look at the 300 year old amendment! Oh right. Does that mean i can blat away at a range with the same guns from the Terminator? Yes its your right! And dont let those libtard ******** in congress tell you otherwise!

The 2nd Amendment is a tool to sell guns. Nothing more

Nice rant, but read what I said. The 2nd amendment is the basis of why America is so gun obsessed. You have to understand American history and not just the last forty years. What about beyond that? Nothing will change from this mass shooting because it is too ingrained in American psyche, they will fight tooth and nail keep hold of them. FYI the US Constitution is only 230 years old not 300 years old, it was only signed in 1787 and the 2nd amendment in 1791.

The 2nd amendment has morphed into what a mess gun laws or complete lack of it is today. Saying it's just a tool is totally misunderstanding the last 230 years of American history. This hasn't just come about in the last 40 years,

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Nice rant, but read what I said. The 2nd amendment is the basis of why America is so gun obsessed. You have to understand American history and not just the last forty years. What about beyond that? Nothing will change from this mass shooting because it is too ingrained in American psyche, they will fight tooth and nail keep hold of them. FYI the US Constitution is only 230 years old not 300 years old, it was only signed in 1787 and the 2nd amendment in 1791.

The 2nd amendment has morphed into what a mess gun laws or complete lack of it is today. Saying it's just a tool is totally misunderstanding the last 230 years of American history. This hasn't just come about in the last 40 years,

That's kind of his point. Gun culture in America is older than the United States of America.

 

[ncurd]

Our police also not having guns means a totally different attitude to policing in general which stems from deescalation rather than neutralisation of an situation.

There have been some excellent articles on this recently one on the BBC about how US police are using tactics from British police.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-us-canada-41314562

Another from cracked.com from an ex British Met Police Officer
http://www.cracked.com/personal-exp...-country-with-no-guns-6-startling-truths.html

 

[McTallshort]

Nice rant, but read what I said. The 2nd amendment is the basis of why America is so gun obsessed. You have to understand American history and not just the last forty years. What about beyond that? Nothing will change from this mass shooting because it is too ingrained in American psyche, they will fight tooth and nail keep hold of them. FYI the US Constitution is only 230 years old not 300 years old, it was only signed in 1787 and the 2nd amendment in 1791.

The 2nd amendment has morphed into what a mess gun laws or complete lack of it is today. Saying it's just a tool is totally misunderstanding the last 230 years of American history. This hasn't just come about in the last 40 years,

Wrong mass gun ownership is fairly new. Yes you had cowboys and gangsters but private citizens owning guns on such a scale as we see today only started happening around 40 years ago.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Go back 40 years....the NRA was just a hunting/shooting group a bit like BASC in the UK. Then came the lobbying.

The problem with that argument is tobacco.
Tobacco had a huge lobby (in terms of resources) but when the people actually saw the consequences of smoking (took a couple of generations) no money appeared to be enough.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Wrong mass gun ownership is fairly new. Yes you had cowboys and gangsters but private citizens owning guns on such a scale as we see today only started happening around 40 years ago.

Really?

They do mention there are different polls but "But the downward trend in gun ownership remains consistent across the national polls. "

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-now-at-a-30-year-low/?utm_term=.d19c71bf1d21

 

[McTallshort]

The problem with that argument is tobacco.
Tobacco had a huge lobby (in terms of resources) but when the people actually saw the consequences of smoking (took a couple of generations) no money appeared to be enough.

Yes but mass shooting dont seem to be changing peoples minds do they?

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Yes but mass shooting dont seem to be changing peoples minds do they?

I don't disagree with that, but that is not the point. I made 2 points regarding your posts, which you kinda dodged.

1) You said that the difference was lobby. I gave you an example with an even bigger lobby that didn't manage to survive, suggesting the difference is NOT lobby.
2) Then you mention that gun ownership was a recent (last 40 years) thing. I provided you with a couple of sources that prove that is simply not true.

I am willing to change my pov, but you need to back up your statements with some evidence.
So far your statements are not only not backed up by any evidence, but the available evidence strongly suggest what you claim is simply not true.

 

[McTallshort]

I don't disagree with that, but that is not the point. I made 2 points regarding your posts, which you kinda dodged.

1) You said that the difference was lobby. I gave you an example with an even bigger lobby that didn't manage to survive, suggesting the difference is NOT lobby.
2) Then you mention that gun ownership was a recent (last 40 years) thing. I provided you with a couple of sources that prove that is simply not true.

I am willing to change my pov, but you need to back up your statements with some evidence.
So far your statements are not only not backed up by any evidence, but the available evidence strongly suggest what you claim is simply not true.

Please read what i wrote again.

I said lobbying was ONE of the reasons not THE reason and it is ONE of the reasons.

You show a graph with number of households owning guns falling. That doesnt show households having multiple weapons. Weapons sales are on the increase and have been for sometime look it up.

Also why are you responding to me? I thought you blocked me after i upset you last time.

 

[McTallshort]

I don't disagree with that, but that is not the point. I made 2 points regarding your posts, which you kinda dodged.

1) You said that the difference was lobby. I gave you an example with an even bigger lobby that didn't manage to survive, suggesting the difference is NOT lobby.
2) Then you mention that gun ownership was a recent (last 40 years) thing. I provided you with a couple of sources that prove that is simply not true.

I am willing to change my pov, but you need to back up your statements with some evidence.
So far your statements are not only not backed up by any evidence, but the available evidence strongly suggest what you claim is simply not true.

Also i dont give a **** about your POV and dont NEED to do anything

 

[ncurd]

Why is the gun lobby working while the tobacco lobby didn't?

Well last I checked you can still buy tobacco freely the regulation has just been on making sure tobacco companies can't lie and must produce warnings. Tobacco was marketed as a 'health' product which was principally and knowingly incorrect.

In regard to guns they are not lying in their marketing guns are designed to kill and they make sure their buyers know that. Self-protection is part of the whole strategy to get people to intially buy guns as well as staement of power.

The arguement always having guns protect you from other people with guns. Until people in US wise up to this not being the case it will never resolve.

Unlike Tobacco the gun lobby hasn't been lying they just have a different (and wrong) political viewpoint.