A Political Thread

[ncurd]

Ahem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_government_1974–79

Ahem (from your article).
After the February 1974 general election, no party had a majority of seats. The incumbent Conservative Party won the popular vote, but Labour took a plurality of seats. Edward Heath, the Conservative Prime Minister, attempted to negotiate a coalition agreement with the Liberal Party, but resigned as Prime Minister after failing in this regard. The Labour Party, led by Harold Wilson, then established a minority government, which took office on4 March 1974.

It was recognised that this had no long-term stability, and that another general election was likely within a few months. Wilson called for another general election for 10 October, and resulted in a narrow victory for the Labour Party with a majority of three seats.

Ahem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_government_1974–79[/QUOTE
Because it was a general election, not a Brexit referrendum?
I know the LibDems wanted it to be a rerun of the referrendum, but, nobody else was playing that game.

Lets have a look at The Queen's Speech 'Brexit, Brexit some more Brexit, electric cars, ooohhh look more Brexit'

Its pretty much the single most important thing to the prosperity of the country in the coming future. To the extent the Labour plan shafts the poor more than rich.

So yeah its still pretty damn important Labour and the Tories don't want to admit how important it is which is why the election wasn't about it.

So yes I stand by my statement why back Labour if you believe brexit will be a misery for everyone?

 

[Which Tyler]

Ahem (from your article).
After the February 1974 general election, no party had a majority of seats. The incumbent Conservative Party won the popular vote, but Labour took a plurality of seats. Edward Heath, the Conservative Prime Minister, attempted to negotiate a coalition agreement with the Liberal Party, but resigned as Prime Minister after failing in this regard. The Labour Party, led by Harold Wilson, then established a minority government, which took office on4 March 1974.

It was recognised that this had no long-term stability, and that another general election was likely within a few months. Wilson called for another general election for 10 October, and resulted in a narrow victory for the Labour Party with a majority of three seats.

That'll teach me to go by memory, ling an article and not even read the bloody thing - nah, who am I kidding, I'll probably be doing the same thing later on today!

As for the rest - even if Brexit was the single most important aspect of the election (it wasn't); it still wasn't the only important aspect of the election, or even more important than all the other aspects; and most certainly wasn't the only aspect. It is perfectly possible and consistent to vote for Labour whilst being anti-Brexit. with or without single market admission.


As for your final sentence: "Why back labour if you believe that Brexit will bring misery for everyone?"
A] Brexit won't bring misery for everyone, the top 1% will do very nicely out of it I'm sure!; but
B] because votes for labour neutred Tory control and made a hard Brexit significantly less likely - this theory looks so far to have been proven correct.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

That'll teach me to go by memory, ling an article and not even read the bloody thing - nah, who am I kidding, I'll probably be doing the same thing later on today!

As for the rest - even if Brexit was the single most important aspect of the election (it wasn't); it still wasn't the only important aspect of the election, or even more important than all the other aspects; and most certainly wasn't the only aspect. It is perfectly possible and consistent to vote for Labour whilst being anti-Brexit. with or without single market admission.


As for your final sentence: "Why back labour if you believe that Brexit will bring misery for everyone?"
A] Brexit won't bring misery for everyone, the top 1% will do very nicely out of it I'm sure!; but
B] because votes for labour neutred Tory control and made a hard Brexit significantly less likely - this theory looks so far to have been proven correct.

There is a massive issue with your B point... a large Tory majority would have delivered a soft Brexit as Theresa may and the majority of the conservative party have always been pro European. The far right of the conservatives (David Davis etc) held the power and to a certain extent still do. You will never find an example of May actually advocating Brexit and a landslide would have taken all the power away from the radicals. What we have seen so far is Ruth Davidson threating to take her MP's away from the party and thus she now has a large amount of power. This would not have been neccesary if there had been a tory landslide as we would have just been walking into a soft Brexit. May and the vast majority of her party would have been able to wrestle us from the brink of economic collapse by imposing a soft Brexit, but now, whilst that is still likley, the Labour party have given the furthest right of the tories a bit of hope

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

There is a massive issue with your B point... a large Tory majority would have delivered a soft Brexit as Theresa may and the majority of the conservative party have always been pro European. The far right of the conservatives (David Davis etc) held the power and to a certain extent still do. You will never find an example of May actually advocating Brexit and a landslide would have taken all the power away from the radicals. What we have seen so far is Ruth Davidson threating to take her MP's away from the party and thus she now has a large amount of power. This would not have been neccesary if there had been a tory landslide as we would have just been walking into a soft Brexit. May and the vast majority of her party would have been able to wrestle us from the brink of economic collapse by imposing a soft Brexit, but now, whilst that is still likley, the Labour party have given the furthest right of the tories a bit of hope

Er the Tories have consistently been the most euro sceptic party apart from the more extreme minor ones (UKIP, BNP etc). Fewer Tories would mean softer Brexit, not more Tories. It was the Tories who kept blaming the EU for everything, the Tories who called the referendum, the Tories who campaigned to leave more than any other major party and the Tories who have been banging the Brexit drum constantly since the vote. I really can't see how you can possibly reason that more Tories would translate to a softer Brexit, it simply wouldn't.

 

[The Jones Boy]

More Tories only leads to a harder brexit and more and more cuts to public spending which in turn leads to greater social unrest and the mess we are in now.
The Tories have stifled the development of renewable energy and allowed the big six to keep jumping up the prices of electricity year on year.
How many billions is that crooked thief Arlene Foster going to swallow so May can keep her battered credibility afloat with tawdry deals that must be making civil servants, nurses, doctors, police, fire fighters and teachers up and down the country open mouthed in shock at how much potential funding is being thrown to the dinosaurs of the DUP. A deepening hole with no end in sight.
The DUP are as closely connected to terrorist organisations as Sinn Fein.
Teresa May is making a rod for her own back.
Sinn Fein are not going to deal with the DUP while Arlene Foster is being investigated for the 490 million overspend in the Renewable Heating Incentive budget.
Where has all the money gone?
She's as dodgy as a three pence piece.
Stormont is in danger of going to Westminster direct rule.
That could mean new elections in northern Ireland.
Alll of which could undermine May's position with the DUP

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Er the Tories have consistently been the most euro sceptic party apart from the more extreme minor ones (UKIP, BNP etc). Fewer Tories would mean softer Brexit, not more Tories. It was the Tories who kept blaming the EU for everything, the Tories who called the referendum, the Tories who campaigned to leave more than any other major party and the Tories who have been banging the Brexit drum constantly since the vote. I really can't see how you can possibly reason that more Tories would translate to a softer Brexit, it simply wouldn't.

I already proved to you how more tories means a softer Brexit because the far right of the party then becomes insignificant. Cameron, if you remember corectly was forced to call the referendum because of pressures from the far right of his party and their threats of defection. It was never something that the party wanted, but something that they needed to do to maintain unity. If that wing of the party had become irrelevant then they would have held no power over May in these negotiations.

 

[Which Tyler]

You provided an opinion. You cannot prove a counterfactual.

Despite Brexit, many people also hold opinions n other subjects that the Tories didn't represent, and the election was still about a lot more than just Brexit.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Let's face it the whole political landscape is a mess and no one is sure what the hell is happening or will happen.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I already proved to you how more tories means a softer Brexit because the far right of the party then becomes insignificant. Cameron, if you remember corectly was forced to call the referendum because of pressures from the far right of his party and their threats of defection. It was never something that the party wanted, but something that they needed to do to maintain unity. If that wing of the party had become irrelevant then they would have held no power over May in these negotiations.

Fair enough I suppose

Let's face it the whole political landscape is a mess and no one is sure what the hell is happening or will happen.

Completely agree with that

 

[The Jones Boy]

I already proved to you how more tories means a softer Brexit because the far right of the party then becomes insignificant.

I think thats a very naive perspective.
I don't see you proved anything at all.
You have an opinion , that is all.
I respect your opinion, I don't agree with it and if you think, which you clearly do, that more Tories will lead to a softer Brexit, you're way out of the ball park.
May called a snap election to increase her majority so she could 'hardball' the EU aristocracy.
Nobody knows what her final position would have been but she has no choice now, because she doesn't have a mandate without a billion pound bung to a party of dinosaurs (from the Tory money tree) who are fast going to see direct rule come in to Northern Ireland taking us back decades to the bad old day... and then watch the troubles start all over again and they will spill into England in no time at all and then we'll be back to IRA bombings hand in hand with Islamic extremists.
The tories will be calling for emergency funds from their new 'Money tree' to put planes on the new aircraft carrier to deal with it....
Teresa May is a nightmare for this country.
If you're not in the top richest 5 % in this country, the Tories have nothing good on the menu for you.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I think thats a very naive perspective.
I don't see you proved anything at all.
You have an opinion , that is all.
I respect your opinion, I don't agree with it and if you think, which you clearly do, that more Tories will lead to a softer Brexit, you're way out of the ball park.
May called a snap election to increase her majority so she could 'hardball' the EU aristocracy.
Nobody knows what her final position would have been but she has no choice now, because she doesn't have a mandate without a billion pound bung to a party of dinosaurs (from the Tory money tree) who are fast going to see direct rule come in to Northern Ireland taking us back decades to the bad old day... and then watch the troubles start all over again and they will spill into England in no time at all and then we'll be back to IRA bombings hand in hand with Islamic extremists.
The tories will be calling for emergency funds from their new 'Money tree' to put planes on the new aircraft carrier to deal with it....
Teresa May is a nightmare for this country.
If you're not in the top richest 5 % in this country, the Tories have nothing good on the menu for you.

I admit that prove was the wrong word to use, but maintain that the snap election was not called to "hardball" the EU, but instead to force her far right contingent into insignificance... but that didn't happen so all hypothetical and with a large amount of guesswork now...
Think the IRA thing is a bit extreme tbh

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I already proved to you how more tories means a softer Brexit because the far right of the party then becomes insignificant. Cameron, if you remember corectly was forced to call the referendum because of pressures from the far right of his party and their threats of defection. It was never something that the party wanted, but something that they needed to do to maintain unity. If that wing of the party had become irrelevant then they would have held no power over May in these negotiations.

No you didn't, you asserted that somehow the most Eurosceptic major party in Britain would lead to a soft Brexit, which is complete nonsense. The hard Brexit lot aren't some minor fringe of the Tories, they make up a sizeable chunk of the party. What actually would have happened is an overwhelming majority in favour of the Conservatives after they had been banging the hard Brexit drum would have been May saying she had the mandate to pursue hard Brexit, that was what the whole thing was about, he having a large majority that she could flaunt to the Europeans as proof that she spoke for the country and it blew up in her face. Now every time she goes to the Europeans demanding hard Brexit, she cannot claim to have the support of the nation.

I will agree though that, once again the Tories are happy to screw the country over to maintain their own personal power.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

It's taken 28 years for prosecutions to be finally announced over Hillsborough. Hope those seeking justice over Grenfell don't have to wait as long.

 

[The Jones Boy]

No you didn't, you asserted that somehow the most Eurosceptic major party in Britain would lead to a soft Brexit, which is complete nonsense. The hard Brexit lot aren't some minor fringe of the Tories, they make up a sizeable chunk of the party. What actually would have happened is an overwhelming majority in favour of the Conservatives after they had been banging the hard Brexit drum would have been May saying she had the mandate to pursue hard Brexit, that was what the whole thing was about, her having a large majority that she could flaunt to the Europeans as proof that she spoke for the country and it blew up in her face.

This is the truth.
The country voted against hard brexit at the snap election.
Her majority is shattered and she is now meddling with exceedingly dangerous affairs beyond her tiny cognisance as she desperately attempts to hold on to power.
Now she is political dog tucker, prepared to squander the nations income from the Conservatives 'money tree' for her own personal political career and threatening to unravel the Irish parliament in the process.
Let us not forget that both Sinn Fein and the DUP have strong terrorist connections.

Sinn Fein are already banging the drum in her ear. They have been to Downing street and told her there is only going to be trouble from this one sided bribe to the DUP, she is not listening.

What do you think is going to happen when NI goes back to direct rule?
All the nationalist leaning parties are going to get the right hump because they will have no say in their own political process because Teresa May will have derailed it.
and the IRA are going to be saying 'Hey Boys, I think we're back in business." Then the UVF will be saying the same thing.
Under direct rule that puts British troops back in NI.
All so Teresa May can hold on to power.

Nice one Teresa, all for your own personal aggrandisement.

This is typical of the short term, self serving politics the Conservative party serves up as their stock fodder.
"I'm alright, pull that ladder up Jack."

 

[ncurd]

Someone explain to me how May can't ram through a hard Brexit considering Labour's stance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40451301

 

[McTallshort]

Someone explain to me how May can't ram through a hard Brexit considering Labour's stance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40451301

JC has always been anti EU he sees it as a huge, corrupt, corporate serving, unaccountable, power hungry bureaucracy thats there to serve the interests of big business which fly's in the face of his socialist beliefs.,

Dont know where he got that idea from.

 

[ncurd]

JC has always been anti EU he sees it as a huge, corrupt, corporate serving, unaccountable, power hungry bureaucracy thats there to serve the interests of big business which fly's in the face of his socialist beliefs.,

Dont know where he got that idea from.

I know all this, what I don't understand it how people think hard Brexit can't happen now. Especially if Corbyn is firing front benchers for not towing whip on issues like not staying in the single market.

there was a lot of Labour members/supporters during the election saying Labour don't support a hard Brexit but this completely contradicts that.

 

[Gavin]

Is the point that the only way you can remain in the single market is being a full member of the EU?

I thought the point of Labour was that we are leaving the EU which includes the single market. We can only negotiate special trade deals etc, but it fundamentally isn't the single market.


In other news abortion for woman from Northern Ireland can now be funded by NHS England. It is fantastic this is now allowed, however listing to the radio this morning the one-eyed, apparently non-judgemental Christians from the country, are certainly judging and demand their religious views are upheld.

Quotes like:

"we are supposed to be Christian in this country"

"women who have abortions are murdering children"

"there are floods and famines in the world because people are not following the word of God"

"abortion is just another form of contraception to the English"

 

[ncurd]

Is the point that the only way you can remain in the single market is being a full member of the EU?

I thought the point of Labour was that we are leaving the EU which includes the single market. We can only negotiate special trade deals etc, but it fundamentally isn't the single market.

You can join things like EFTA (which people like Farage use to advocate but don't anymore)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association

Their point is you can't join groups like that without freedom of movement which is all entirely fair but the difference between hard and soft Brexit is access to the customs union and the single market. How Labour can say to be opposed to hard Brexit I find baffling.

 

[The Jones Boy]

What exactly is Brexit?
Is it ;eaving the European Union?
If it is then goodbye single market.
Goodbye free movement of people from Europe into the UK.
Hello tarriffs and taxes on the movement of goods and produce between UK and Europe