A Political Thread

[McTallshort]

Im not saying that, of course we need to court new markets and allies it could be a great opportunity for us, to say our political and social consensus has never been particularly similar is daft.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Im not saying that, of course we need to court new markets and allies it could be a great opportunity for us, to say our political and social consensus has never been particularly similar is daft.

No, to think we must be incredibly similar because we both went to war in Iraq together is daft.

We are extremely different in a lot of ways with a huge number of ways in which I prefer the UK despite its problems. In no order whatsoever...:

We don't basically try and make it impossible for people with convictions to get work.

Our police don't systematically target and lock up people with colour

The stranglehold of business and the world of work here is weaker - annual leave and sick allowances are just one example and our rights are hugely better for it

The unions have been more relevant here

Racism around immigration is a problem in both countries but only in one of the two countries would you get people shouting "Obamas a muslim" and feeling that the dirty connotations of muslim are enough of an argument in and of themself. Trumpism can be explained partially as a backlash against the fact that America had for two terms its first black president and the truth is a lot of people didn't like that, whether they could admit it to themselves or not. At least in the UK those who are anti immigration at least feel the need to justify it by reference to jobs, service capacity etc - they express a soial desirability bias which indicates what is acceptable and what's not.

Redistribution and universal healthcare is something we think of as a national trademark and are fighting to protect not destroy.

Gun culture.

These are just some of the differences. And don't think of these as random artefacts of historical development. They are obvious expressions of the values and prejudices of each country.

 

[McTallshort]

OK bare with because I cannot quote....

News to me regards convicts but I know the US locks up a higher proportion than most which is probably down to the fact it has 50% of all the worlds lawyers.

That is arguable but a report not too many years ago after the Steven Laurence inquiry found the Met to be institutionally racist I believe?

Well that depends where you work, many logistical jobs such as Amazon, Sports Direct, JD Sports give you no rights at all.

Wrong. Both countries have seen the decline in Union power since the ending of major industry.

Im not sure thats entirely true, Obama was an ineffective President which probably made people go for what they thought might be a more effective one but yes the Americans do seem obsessed with race and its a problem over the whole political spectrum, on the right you have people justifying shooting a black guy in the back and on the left you have "Resolutions for White Guys"

Yeah the health care one is a good point. Fact on this: the average UK resident pays £3000 for healthcare per annum. The average US resident pays £8000 for Healthcare per Annum. wouldnt it just make sense for the Americans to pay for Healthcare through their taxes?

Gun Culture is something we dont understand in this country for many reasons and probably requires a different debate but I am pleased we do have the restrictions we have and I say that as someone who can legally own a firearm.

Yeah I think you have some good points to be honest but they are still our most powerful ally and they want to do business with us. We would be stupid to get high and mighty given our relationships with the likes of Saudi Arabia and China

 

[Which Tyler]

OK bare with because I cannot quote....

1. You need to read more - the US prison system is fully privatised, and a vital part of the military industrial complex - essentially forced labour. 3 strikes and you're out; and the system came before the lawyers, not the other way around.

2. Quite a while ago, and not remotely to the same degree - I don't think the UK has had the same race issues as the US at any point in our histories.

3. Well - wrong. Those workers do still have rights; they were just ignored by their bosses as not enough people made enough of a stink - and once busted they'd had to pay the price.

4. Indeed - and union power is still on different levels between the 2 countries.

5. HC was simplifying; but race relations in the US are abyssmal, whereas ours are up amongst the best int he world - not great, not good, just better than just about anywhere else.


7. Gun Culture is something we no longer have in this country, not that we never had - we may never have fetishised guns, or had strong political lobbying on their behalf; but our gun controls are still pretty recent; mostly being a long, gradual process of increased vigilance and wider scoipe of bans; but really jumping in the aftermaths of events like Hungerford and Dunblane.

 

[McTallshort]

1. Dont really find the prison system in the US great reading but agree Im ignorant on the subject.

2. Perhaps you should read more, the 60's 70's and 80's were very bad for race relations plus we had a population in Northern Ireland living in an almost apartheid system for most of the 60's.

3. No those workers dont have rights, no one from Sports Direct was prosecuted as far as I am aware. Also America isnt the third world, the vast majority of people have good employment and good living standards

4. Dont know how you can say this, the Airline, Teamsters, public services unions in the US are far more powerful than anything we have in the UK.

5. I agree he did simplify it and I also made the point Americans are obsessed by it.

6. See previous answer

 

[Which Tyler]

2. I never said race relations here were good in teh 60s, 70s or 80s - just a lot better than in the USA.

3. You'd be wrong though - none of those companies have an official waiver on UK/EU workers' rights legislation. I thought the Sports Direct guy was prosecuted; but could very easily be wrong there. I don't think anyone ever claimed that USA was a 3rd world country, or that no-one there has good employment or living standards.

4. I think you significantly under-estimate the power of UK unions; even if they rarely use it (or the governmental party they have most sway with is busy committing auto-erotic asphyxiation).


Basically; there's a huge difference between saying that we're different from the US (HC and myself); versus saying that USA is screwed and we're great (your interpretation of what we're saying)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Find it interesting all the love for Merkel all of a sudden.

I mean if she hadn't made in her own words a mistake (and it was a very badly judged mistake) would Brexit and Trump have happened in 2016?

 

[McTallshort]

2. I never said race relations here were good in teh 60s, 70s or 80s - just a lot better than in the USA.

3. You'd be wrong though - none of those companies have an official waiver on UK/EU workers' rights legislation. I thought the Sports Direct guy was prosecuted; but could very easily be wrong there. I don't think anyone ever claimed that USA was a 3rd world country, or that no-one there has good employment or living standards.

4. I think you significantly under-estimate the power of UK unions; even if they rarely use it (or the governmental party they have most sway with is busy committing auto-erotic asphyxiation).


Basically; there's a huge difference between saying that we're different from the US (HC and myself); versus saying that USA is screwed and we're great (your interpretation of what we're saying)

Kind of sure I agreed with a lot of what HC said but carry on

 

[Which Tyler]

Kind of sure I agreed with a lot of what HC said but carry on

Kind of sure I addressed fewer and fewer of your points; and the ones that remained seemed mostly about a mis-understanding of what was being said...

As for carrying on... I did forget one thing - Thank you for thinking I need to read up on what the "60s, 70s and 80s were like"; sweet of you, but I'm afraid I remember them pretty well (well, the 70s and 80s; less so the 60s)

 

[McTallshort]

Kind of sure I addressed fewer and fewer of your points; and the ones that remained seemed mostly about a mis-understanding of what was being said...

As for carrying on... I did forget one thing - Thank you for thinking I need to read up on what the "60s, 70s and 80s were like"; sweet of you, but I'm afraid I remember them pretty well (well, the 70s and 80s; less so the 60s)

Your welcome

 

[Which Tyler]

Hugs and Kisses

Aid

 

[j'nuh]

My point is we tend to follow whatever America does for the right of wrong reasons anyway, its doesn't make the blindest bit of difference if we are in the EU or not.

It does somewhat. I think most of those who voted to leave will accept that leaving will worsen our trading position with the EU. Whereas the voters mostly take a cavalier attitude to it, considering it a lower priority, I think it's a major concern for the Tory party. If the Tories are unable to forge new trading relations with other countries to replace the loss of trade to the EU, then it could damage the economy fairly badly. This would damage the Tory reputation for being strong on the economy.

I think this pressure on May could force her into doing deals with the devil.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

OK bare with because I cannot quote....

News to me regards convicts but I know the US locks up a higher proportion than most which is probably down to the fact it has 50% of all the worlds lawyers.

That is arguable but a report not too many years ago after the Steven Laurence inquiry found the Met to be institutionally racist I believe?

Well that depends where you work, many logistical jobs such as Amazon, Sports Direct, JD Sports give you no rights at all.

Wrong. Both countries have seen the decline in Union power since the ending of major industry.

Im not sure thats entirely true, Obama was an ineffective President which probably made people go for what they thought might be a more effective one but yes the Americans do seem obsessed with race and its a problem over the whole political spectrum, on the right you have people justifying shooting a black guy in the back and on the left you have "Resolutions for White Guys"

Yeah the health care one is a good point. Fact on this: the average UK resident pays £3000 for healthcare per annum. The average US resident pays £8000 for Healthcare per Annum. wouldnt it just make sense for the Americans to pay for Healthcare through their taxes?

Gun Culture is something we dont understand in this country for many reasons and probably requires a different debate but I am pleased we do have the restrictions we have and I say that as someone who can legally own a firearm.

Yeah I think you have some good points to be honest but they are still our most powerful ally and they want to do business with us. We would be stupid to get high and mighty given our relationships with the likes of Saudi Arabia and China

so a couple things

we have the world's largest percentage of population locked up because of our prison-industrial complex and the pharmaceutical companies... pharmaceutical companies lobby to keep recreational drugs illegal and with harsh penalties. For some reason we allow prisons to be operated by private corporations who are able to profit because the government will pay them to house the prisoners and the prisons can use prison labor to manufacture goods which they can sell at lower prices due to their lower expenses. The only layers who can send you to jail are those that work in the District Attorneys office or another prosecution arm of the government. Those positions have a set limit of numbers and any extra lawyers are working for private firms. Are amount of lawyers explains why we have so many lawsuits, which you cannot go to jail for.

You keep saying Obama was ineffective but when you list reasons for why he was ineffective you list things that are either a) completely unpopular to a large amount of americans (which you would then criticize him for being unpopular, i think your problem is really with americans) or b ) have nothing to do with him. The correct term may be perceived ineffectiveness.

Did America really switch and vote for a more effective candidate? Hillary only received 100,000 less votes than Obama did in 2012. The more likely scenario is that people who usually didn't participate in elections were excited by Trump's promise to make white lives great again.

The race thing is almost entirely the white people being okay with black people getting shot by cops. 70% of our nation is white and about 55% of the country will always side with the police. I'd put the number of people who are douchey whites are always wrong types at about 5%, it's just a combination of them using twitter nonstop and the fact that 55% of the country country complaining about 5% makes the issue seem like a bigger deal.

Newt Gingrich came out and said that it would be cheaper to just give everyone healthcare than to have subsidized private insurance. Again, Insurance companies have so much power that we will never do the actual economically efficent thing.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

This would damage the Tory reputation for being strong on the economy.

The very idea of which is extraordinary in itself.

 

[McTallshort]

Another attack in Paris.

 

[Which Tyler]

Another attack in Paris.

Fuck.


ETA:
Single perp (?) with a knife tried to take on some armed security - didn't work out well for him
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38853841

The man, who tried to gain entry to the Louvre's shopping centre, was shot in the abdomen and seriously injured.

One soldier sustained a slight head injury.

A patrol of four soldiers are reported to have tried to subdue the assailant using non-lethal force after he rushed at them.

When this failed and after one soldier was injured, five shots were fired. The suspected attacker was taken to hospital.

 

[JJFlash]

According to Le Monde, a man with a machete screaming " Allahou akbar " was threatening a soldier. Other soldiers tried unsuccessfully to apprehend him and he was shot in the abdomen.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Wonder what are the odds of Pen winning?

 

[McTallshort]

Depends. If its just some plonker with knife and it comes out there was no wider conspiracy then no. If it's pre planned with security forces failures then yes the far right will gain ground with this

 

[ratsapprentice]

Suspect it might just be a "lone-wolf" nutter with a machete (depends what's in the bags, though)...