A Political Thread

[ratsapprentice]

Why do you perceive BBC centre-left? Do you have examples?

I don't think I'm going to convince you, given that you think the Guardian is centrist.

Ok, but TV as a source of opinion is just barely relevant

I'd say the complete opposite, as the newspaper circulation stats you posted show... print has far less reach than TV.
Even allowing for consumption of news/opinion through the internet, it's a minority of people who sit down to read long, comprehensive articles.
And those that do are probably more entrenched/certain of their own views anyway, so the influence that articles can have on them is blunted.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I don't think I'm going to convince you, given that you think the Guardian is centrist.



I'd say the complete opposite, as the newspaper circulation stats you posted show... print has far less reach than TV.
Even allowing for consumption of news/opinion through the internet, it's a minority of people who sit down to read long, comprehensive articles.
And those that do are probably more entrenched/certain of their own views anyway, so the influence that articles can have on them is blunted.

You don't need to read full articles when the headlines as you have designed in the Mail and the Sun are already using an aggressive language telling you straight away the gist of the piece. Besides, tabloid articles are not comprehensive. It's also note just outlets but even youtube videos often have ***les which are supposed to lead you, and scrolling on facebook you are hardly insulated from suggestion through article stubs, ***les etc. Overall I think the online environment is absolutely huge for opinion.

As I say, I don't believe that the majority of 'filler' on TV is particularly politicised. Actual news is period, brief, tends to be to the point. The inverse is true of America of course whereby ad-campaigns don't give you a moments rest from being confronted with political information. Fact is, you're correct about TV viewing numbers being huge but I think we're got a populace who dislike politics and don't want to think too much about it. I don't think an invasion of politics into the home via the TV would be palatable to the British people and therefore in a reverse kind of logic I'd say that high TV numbers suggest a satisfactorily politically-neutral content (for the most part - programmes about immigrants and benefits not withstanding)

 

[j'nuh]

I don't think I'm going to convince you, given that you think the Guardian is centrist.

I'm interested.

Let me be a bit clearer on how I have designated the Guardian. Left-wing vs right-wing is a pretty outdated model for the political spectrum. How would you define someone who is socially progressive (pro-LGBT, pro-choice etc.) but is economically right-wing? It's fairly typical to use a multi-axis designation to get over this: one axis for economic issues, one for social issues. Now clearly on the social spectrum, the Guardian are left-wing. But on the economic spectrum? If left-wing is full communism and right-wing is full capitalism and the middle is mixed mode, where you like facets of both, then the Guardian is clearly somewhere in the middle. Their support for Lib Dems, the EU, Owen Smith clearly shows this.

Relatively-speaking, they are of the left, because there are a lot of publications that love free market capitalism. But wider picture? They still clearly support the market-based economic system that we have. To compare, Corbyn would then be centre-left and Marx would be far left.

 

[profitius]

The horrible truth about Barrack Obama.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsWzfhvvOgg

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I'm interested.

Let me be a bit clearer on how I have designated the Guardian. Left-wing vs right-wing is a pretty outdated model for the political spectrum. How would you define someone who is socially progressive (pro-LGBT, pro-choice etc.) but is economically right-wing? It's fairly typical to use a multi-axis designation to get over this: one axis for economic issues, one for social issues. Now clearly on the social spectrum, the Guardian are left-wing. But on the economic spectrum? If left-wing is full communism and right-wing is full capitalism and the middle is mixed mode, where you like facets of both, then the Guardian is clearly somewhere in the middle. Their support for Lib Dems, the EU, Owen Smith clearly shows this.

Relatively-speaking, they are of the left, because there are a lot of publications that love free market capitalism. But wider picture? They still clearly support the market-based economic system that we have. To compare, Corbyn would then be centre-left and Marx would be far left.

A stance re. Markets is only one aspect of an economic position. I have to say I don't understand why so many people distill economic policy thinking into just a position on trade.

Also your illustration of the spectrum in relation to our political system is wrong. In a capitalist democracy you can't represent full blown communism as one end of the spectrum when all the parties subscribe to a capitalist system albeit with varying degrees of checks controls and protections.

Secondly, supporting a particular party means nothing if you don't consider the 'supply' of available parties. Parties a proxy at the best of times, and with the left wing completely broken in the UK and without serious leadership or electability, the Lib Dems have become the best bet for many of us. I say that as. Long term Labour party member.

Also, if the guardian is socially / politically liberal, even if I accepted which I don't that they are economically completely centrist, how would hat as up to make them overall a party of the centre?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm interested.

Ok.

So generally speaking, when I talk about left/right its within the context of mainstream western (UK centric) politics. So, for the most part, we can assume that communism and anarcho-capitalism are off the table.
I refer to those extremes as the far-right and far-left.

I don't see the right wing starting at the same point as capitalism - capitalism is the centre. The further left you go the larger government is, the further right you go, the smaller.
I think people sometimes struggle with that, because as you move left on that scale, you get communism which is seen as an alternative, un-related style of governance to capitalism. Whereas when you go further right, you end up with nothing... so people end up seeing it as being communism on the left, capitalism on the right. I, however, see it as communism-capitalism-libertarianism/no-government. But that "no-government" is not just an extreme form of capitalism, it's something else entirely, but because it's fundamentally amorphous, people struggle to identify it as such.

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Also, if the guardian is socially / politically liberal, even if I accepted which I don't that they are economically completely centrist, how would hat as up to make them overall a party of the centre?

Left wing - not liberal.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Ok.

So generally speaking, when I talk about left/right its within the context of mainstream western (UK centric) politics. So, for the most part, we can assume that communism and anarcho-capitalism are off the table.
I refer to those extremes as the far-right and far-left.

I don't see the right wing starting at the same point as capitalism - capitalism is the centre. The further left you go the larger government is, the further right you go, the smaller.
I think people sometimes struggle with that, because as you move left on that scale, you get communism which is seen as an alternative, un-related style of governance to capitalism. Whereas when you go further right, you end up with nothing... so people end up seeing it as being communism on the left, capitalism on the right. I, however, see it as communism-capitalism-libertarianism/no-government. But that "no-government" is not just an extreme form of capitalism, it's something else entirely, but because it's fundamentally amorphous, people struggle to identify it as such.

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Left wing - not liberal.

i think the fact that you believe capitalism to be the center of politics shows why you have a skewed view of the political alignment of anything

 

[ratsapprentice]

What would you say is the centre of the political spectrum then?

I'm not trying to suggest that pure, unadulterated capitalism is the centre. I should have said that the centre is the overlap of capitalism and socialism.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

What would you say is the centre of the political spectrum then?

I'm not trying to suggest that pure, unadulterated capitalism is the centre. I should have said that the centre is the overlap of capitalism and socialism.

I'd say that wherever you currently are is the center.

Edit: actually i say take the last 20 year average of your country's politics and have that be your center... times change and you will have right left and left wing governments

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The horrible truth about Barrack Obama.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsWzfhvvOgg

Would take anything from that guy with a pinch of salt. Used to follow him on youtube but then started noticing some seriously inaccurate or unsupported claims this guy was making and he really does NOT like having to explain himself. First response is to be condescending, question your intelligence, say you love tyranny and are basically Communist. The issue at hand was that the free market is *always* superior, to which I argued a free market where there was no competition was actually no better and in many cases worse than a state run sector. Some valid points but, like a lot of self-styled Libertarians, is really far up his own arse and so convinced of his superiority he doesn't feel the need to ever support anything he says when challenged.

EDIT: Actually just rewatched some of his stuff and remembered how bad it is. The guy is a lunatic. He openly advocated the idea of shutting yourself away from anyone who would question your beliefs, said Atheists are responsible for the destruction of the fabric of society and acts like what he is, a cult leader. I'd recommend you distance yourself from his videos because any good points he has are mixed in with a seriously unhinged individual who, like Trump, is convinced of his own superiority and is incapable of listening to opposition.

 

[The Jones Boy]

i think the fact that you believe capitalism to be the center of politics shows why you have a skewed view of the political alignment of anything

Ha ha
That made me chuckle...

If anyone is going to talk about left and right then the left has to be Marx, Engels, and Lenin on the far left (complete with tumble weeds and solidarity brothers) Please note there has never been a Communist state, thats just a label given to them by western media. Marx is very clear, you cannot achieve a state of Communism until all participating states are 'Socialist'. There have been some socialist states but not communist.

On the far right we have Hitler, Pol Pot, Suharto etc. dictators, despots and those reprehensible types who engage in ethnic cleansing, fascism and neo nazi ideologies.

What we see in our media very rarely constitutes polarising elements.
The media try to make them look very different but they really aren't.

Corbyn is often demonised in the right leaning press as being hard left wing but the truth is he is strictly centre left.
Osborne and Cameron were often demonised by left leaning press as hard right because they wanted to improve the situation and conditions for the wealthy. The truth is they are centre -right.

Both major parties seek to use the 'system' to make their changes.
We are hardly going to hit any extreme game breaking politics if we are still in the same framework.
The media tries to convince us otherwise...

The Guardian is very centre with left leanings on some matters (NHS, education, housing and social policy) and centre-right leanings on others (free market, taxation).
The Telegraph and the Times are right-lite

The Mail and the Sun are for those who prefer gossip, fiction and pictures to actual news.

 

[j'nuh]

A stance re. Markets is only one aspect of an economic position. I have to say I don't understand why so many people distill economic policy thinking into just a position on trade.

It's also a bunch of other economic related things e.g. beliefs on social security, distributions and levels of state spending, taxation etc.

Also your illustration of the spectrum in relation to our political system is wrong. In a capitalist democracy you can't represent full blown communism as one end of the spectrum when all the parties subscribe to a capitalist system albeit with varying degrees of checks controls and protections.

Sure you can. It scares me the idea that we can lose sight of one side of the political spectrum, making it seem extreme and normalising the other extreme, by shifting politically. I prefer to think in absolutes than relatively. If we speak relatively, Corbyn is extremely left-wing. But I think it scares people off his ideas, which aren't particularly extreme. I would never want us to be in a position like USA, where you are a full-blown leftist hippie if you think that maybe there should be a minimum wage in every state.

Also, if the guardian is socially / politically liberal, even if I accepted which I don't that they are economically completely centrist, how would hat as up to make them overall a party of the centre?

Sorry, can you reword this please? Getting a bit confused!

Ok.

So generally speaking, when I talk about left/right its within the context of mainstream western (UK centric) politics. So, for the most part, we can assume that communism and anarcho-capitalism are off the table.
I refer to those extremes as the far-right and far-left.

I don't see the right wing starting at the same point as capitalism - capitalism is the centre. The further left you go the larger government is, the further right you go, the smaller.
I think people sometimes struggle with that, because as you move left on that scale, you get communism which is seen as an alternative, un-related style of governance to capitalism. Whereas when you go further right, you end up with nothing... so people end up seeing it as being communism on the left, capitalism on the right. I, however, see it as communism-capitalism-libertarianism/no-government. But that "no-government" is not just an extreme form of capitalism, it's something else entirely, but because it's fundamentally amorphous, people struggle to identify it as such.

I think we are using different terms for a similar thing. I use "laissez faire capitalism" (i.e. very small government, minimal state-based-structure) instead of (economic) libertarianism.

Even then, to me centrism is the mixed-mode (the so-called 'Third Way'). Taking what is generally seen as a right-wing structure for economic policy (free markets, most things are privatised etc.) with major social provisions (social security, workers' rights etc.). For me, under normal circumstances Labour occupies this ground (Corbyn and his supporters are further left than what is standard for Labour, and most Labour MPs dislike the party being in that position), as does the Guardian, as does the Liberal Democrats.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Ha ha
That made me chuckle...

If anyone is going to talk about left and right then the left has to be Marx, Engels, and Lenin on the far left (complete with tumble weeds and solidarity brothers) Please note there has never been a Communist state, thats just a label given to them by western media. Marx is very clear, you cannot achieve a state of Communism until all participating states are 'Socialist'. There have been some socialist states but not communist.

On the far right we have Hitler, Pol Pot, Suharto etc. dictators, despots and those reprehensible types who engage in ethnic cleansing, fascism and neo nazi ideologies.

What we see in our media very rarely constitutes polarising elements.
The media try to make them look very different but they really aren't.

Corbyn is often demonised in the right leaning press as being hard left wing but the truth is he is strictly centre left.
Osborne and Cameron were often demonised by left leaning press as hard right because they wanted to improve the situation and conditions for the wealthy. The truth is they are centre -right.

Both major parties seek to use the 'system' to make their changes.
We are hardly going to hit any extreme game breaking politics if we are still in the same framework.
The media tries to convince us otherwise...

The Guardian is very centre with left leanings on some matters (NHS, education, housing and social policy) and centre-right leanings on others (free market, taxation).
The Telegraph and the Times are right-lite

The Mail and the Sun are for those who prefer gossip, fiction and pictures to actual news.

not surprising but the united states doesn't have a left leaning economic either... newspapers are all regional and where I live we only have one newspaper and everyone just gets their news online

but of the major ones New York Times is socially liberal but economically central, Wall Street Journal is socially liberal and fiscally conservative

for the major cable news TV... CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News are all anti-facts, none of them really have fiscal leanings other than Fox News hates anything democrats do... they don't really have a position other than democrats are evil

PBS, our version of BBC, is pretty much down right the middle, it offers very little editorializing and pretty much just reports the news... when it does editorialize it usually has someone from both sides and they aren't token representatives

PBS gets bashed by the both the right and left for being too far the other way, it's just that the right is larger and louder in America so that's what you hear

 

[The Jones Boy]

Donald Trump is throwing out tweets to distract the media from what he is busy doing.

Some folk are referring to it as Weapons of Mass Distraction.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Well things have escalated very very quickly...

 

[profitius]

Well things have escalated very very quickly...

Good. The more the left throw a tantrum the more it means Trump is doing a good job.

 

[The Jones Boy]

There isn't a left anymore.
There is only middle of the roadsters, Chardonnay socialists and the far right pointing at the centrist middle class and screaming 'Pinko'.

 

[ncurd]

Good. The more the left throw a tantrum the more it means Trump is doing a good job.

Yeah because people like Boris Johnson are the left. I've seen this nonsense comment several times and even the center right are appalled by this situation it's got nothing to do with the left.

 

[Groundhog]

Good. The more the left throw a tantrum the more it means Trump is doing a good job.

In what day is he doing a good job beyond ******* off people you don't like please tell me? Because that's not a barometer of success. He's just replaced the chairman of the joint chiefs, the highest ranking military member with Stephen Bannon, leader of...... Breitbart news on his security council. Won't be long before the "left" (which I don't consider myself a part of) aren't just turning on him.

 

[profitius]

In what day is he doing a good job beyond ******* off people you don't like please tell me? Because that's not a barometer of success. He's just replaced the chairman of the joint chiefs, the highest ranking military member with Stephen Bannon, leader of...... Breitbart news on his security council. Won't be long before the "left" (which I don't consider myself a part of) aren't just turning on him.

Those people were rioting as he was being sworn in as president. The left were not always ****** off though. At first they were all laughing at Trump when he announced he would run for the presidency. He was the butt of many jokes. Well they're not laughing now. Just goes to show how out of touch they are.

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Yeah because people like Boris Johnson are the left. I've seen this nonsense comment several times and even the center right are appalled by this situation it's got nothing to do with the left.

It's appalling all right. A president protecting the borders. Shocking stuff! Before you know it those poor unfortunate illegal criminals (dreamers?) will start being deported. Lol