A Political Thread

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

please tell me your joking....

The actual problem is for years the USA media (which is very right wing not left) has portrayed the democratic party as bunch of lefty socialists when they're not. Also anti-American values which whilst they may have differing opinion aren't a millionIsles apart.

The problem is after years of dividing rhetoric because it sells even when outlets like Fox News realise that Trump is a dangerous choice they don't listen and as they believe Democrats are the enemy and should be stopped no matter who is selected.

Also it's not a surprise those on the lowest rungs of ladder in life flock to someone outside the normal political establishment. Right wing people.go to Farage or Trump. Left wing a Sander or Corbyn. They deserve someone who will really fight for them it's just a shame Sanders is the closest they had to a real stand bearer who really believesorry he is fighting for them.

I would say you are underestimating the left in this aswell esp in America.

The huge increase in the amount of I'm offended on behalf of that person is doing a fair amount of damage itself IMO, (look at the Louie smith thing, whilst it might be offensive to some how is it different to Father Ted mocking the Catholic Church?), and the whole White privilege thing I understand that being White generally puts you on a better platform than say being black (and I can take that on the chin as I live comfortably) but imagine being extremely poor no education and still being called privilaged becuase you are white esp by other white people in a better of place esp celebrities, how is that going to make you feel? I would imagine resentful.

Like in the Brexit lead up the Media pointed to immigration as a scapegoat but instead of the left focusing on why have the government allowed immigration to get so built up in our poorest areas instead of spreading it around more they basically called anyone who mentions it racist.

The media on both sides want conflict and division it sells papers it's why since the vote more and more left media have gone after the older generation. I mean I voted remain but I'm not going to be mad at the older generation for exercising there right to vote. Personally I thought that the argument that they won't have to live with the consequences was in very poor taste.

Its basically a culture of shaming. (It prob always existed but only become massively visible due to social media IMO).

I do feel that if Sanders was a candidate for the democrats they would win by a fair amount.

 

[McTallshort]

I think we give Russia too much Credit. They are a big country with nuclear weapons but most of their conventional forces are outdated (although not as out dated as most American front line aircraft) and its members not on regular pay. The site of that smoking cold war wreck of an aircraft carrier lumbering through the channel was a very pitiful.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The media on both sides want conflict and division it sells papers it's why since the vote more and more left media have gone after the older generation. I mean I voted remain but I'm not going to be mad at the older generation for exercising there right to vote. Personally I thought that the argument that they won't have to live with the consequences was in very poor taste.

Its basically a culture of shaming. (It prob always existed but only become massively visible due to social media IMO).

Couldn't agree more on every single point, Tigs - I feel exactly the same way.

I feel it's going to get a lot worse before it gets any better though, unfortunately.

 

[ncurd]

I think the language of the left is deeply troubling, it's less of a media problem but more of one from social media I find. I may disagree with something found in places likethe Guardian but I don't think they are fuelling the flames.

The problem is the left (and the right, read BBC comments if you want to read the right being just as bad) seamed to have adopted a very militant attitude on social media to any dissenting voice and even a slightly moderate attitude is shot down.

I'm running event which requires people to define which gender they are although sometimes it doesn't matter and there limited spaces in each slot for those people. We had a 'legitimate' complaint from someone who believes they don't have gender that they had to select what gender they were rather than chose the one of the non-gendered spaces.
I said fine we can't change that right now because we were in the middle signing up right now but we'll look into fixing it next year. howeve when I suggested a solution of just allowing people to sign up a neutral if they wish, I got massive complaints that was being unfair or not supporting in equality because

a) my solution did not enforce the exact same rules on gendered people (they have to slect which gender they are even though I was allowing them to have that option if they wished), neutral would have an automated option to. But nope not good enough if some people made the decision to select thier gender every time everyone had to do that....
b) All parts of the event should be completely gender neurtral even though this required people to 'act' in gender defined roles.

There have been other similar instances which I've dispaired at.



On the other side of the coin I do resent the older generation a little and can see why this rehtoric is building, 'Mellenials' are really being screwed by their decisions currently. We have a generation pensioners and those just entering that have amazing pension schemes and are far richer then we will ever be (most reports are saying is this will be the first generation to not be richer than thier parents). These pensions will not be paid by what they put in but the work of the current working generations taxes. House prices have sky rocketed and those earning what would of comfortably got them a house can no longer even afford to build up a modest deposit to acquire one.
alot of this is because of the extremely short term view to progress that occured in the 90's and recently.


I'm really at dispair at this country at the moment we have a left that increasingly angry and have a feeling of entitlement. But the right have an uncurrent of real nastiness to thier views, you mention being labeled racists but quite a bit of the language I heard from some people voting to leave was racist. I was on a street the other day in my hometown and the local goverment had handed out bright prange flyers basically saying "**** Off Trick N Treaters" standing in street where I was surrounded by these flyers posted in houses legitimately felt hostile and stand offish. The sad thing is I've never known trick n treaers visit houses that weren't obviously celebrating halloween and were welcoming. Hell we have problems most years in people visiting because we stick out a small sign and the light is terrible at the entrance of out house.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

love the idea that trump would be better in diplomatic relations than the former secretary of state

We are probably on the same page but i'll bite.
It's not any secretary of state... it's a secretary of state that couldn't even differentiate her personal email account from her work one.
It's the secretary of state that deleted 30,000 emails.

Not sure if you are into IT, but do you know how hard it is to delete, i mean, completely delete that amount of data?
Let me put it in blunt terms: it is impossible, yes, impossible to do what she did by accident. It takes a certain level of computer literacy she does not have to do that.

People do not chose Trump because they like Trump. Some will vote Trump because they dislike Hillary more, but a considerable amount of people will vote Trump because he represents some sort of change.
It might be a bad change, and in this case it probably will be, but they are done, absolutely done with politics as usual and this is exactly what Hillary represents.

as CIC he would essentially be able to do whatever he wants under the guise of police military action; the constitution doesn't mean much when the president doesn't give a damn about it

Well, as far as i am aware, in order to change taxes or declare war, you need congressional approval. You can send troops but there is a tangible limit to what he can and cannot do, regardless of whether he gives a damm or not.

lastly i don't know how surprised you can be that so many Americans support him. he is most popular in the states with the lowest GDP per capita and lowest % of college educated people

Labeling as ignorant is not understanding the root of the problem.
The problem here is not what Trump is doing, what what the entire political system has done over the last 30 years. Blaming things on "the right", Trump, GOP, is just dodging the issue.

A very similar thing happened with Brexit. The people who lost still don't understand why they lost and all they can care to mumble is "Racists", "uneducated", "xenophboes" and idiots. That failure to understand the underlying voting drivers is what cost them the referendum.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What are people stances on the poppies and Fifa?


I can see both sides, but then again I don't veiw wearing the poppies as political really, Although surpised to see the amount of comments from people saying that poppies are really. Esp from those saying it is an American and jingoism thing.

I always viewed them as a sign of remembering a huge tragedy that cost so many lives.

But then again if FIFA allowed this what is to stop Argentina doing something similar with the Falklands war? It could open a huge can of worms for them.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

What are people stances on the poppies and Fifa?


I can see both sides, but then again I don't veiw wearing the poppies as political really, Although surpised to see the amount of comments from people saying that poppies are really. Esp from those saying it is an American and jingoism thing.

I always viewed them as a sign of remembering a huge tragedy that cost so many lives.

But then again if FIFA allowed this what is to stop Argentina doing something similar with the Falklands war? It could open a huge can of worms for them.

I think they have it right, the issue is that it commemorates wars since 1945, it has very negative connotations for many people in fellow member nations such as Ireland, Northern Ireland, Afghanistan and Iraq. If it was only to commemorate the World Wars they'd have gone too far.


From the Lions thread:

Looks a bit shiny although pleased to see a bit of a collar.

Hate seeing a sponsor's name plastered all over the front of an international shirt tho. One thing English football does better although more than offset by the poppy denying morons at FIFA.

I think FIFA were right to be fair, not that it is likely to happen but if England had a poppy on their shirt while playing Iraq or Afghanistan, who are both members of FIFA, it'd be a bit of an insult.

 

[ncurd]

We are probably on the same page but i'll bite.
It's not any secretary of state... it's a secretary of state that couldn't even differentiate her personal email account from her work one.
It's the secretary of state that deleted 30,000 emails.

Not sure if you are into IT, but do you know how hard it is to delete, i mean, completely delete that amount of data?
Let me put it in blunt terms: it is impossible, yes, impossible to do what she did by accident. It takes a certain level of computer literacy she does not have to do that.

I'm not sure Hillary deleted the e-mails herself mate, I'm fairly certain she got someone else to do so and asked for it to happen. And they were deleted because they were 'personal' (according to her) and therefore not pertinent to the FBI investigation into her mishandling of classified information.
As to mixing up her 'accounts' you don't do that when you handling classified information, if you don't think one her aides in charge of security told her it was okay your kidding yourself.

Now why her and her lawyer wanted to remove those e-mails and why she used a personal e-mail sever you could argue tooth and nail why and not believe her. However absolutely nothing has been proven for ill-intent other than gross speculation.



I think your oversimplifying Brexit those are all reasons why we are leaving the EU "oh they are just disenfranchise and want change". The Brexit campaign took the vulnerable on society and played on their base fears of those who are different (I should note the remain campaign was equally guilty on project fear but don't let leave kid you they were not playing the same game to a higher degree) we see it perpetually played out in the media that foreigners are the problem not the root cause.

Take one example some **** in a white van killed an entire family spending too long looking at his phone rather than the ****ing road and has been jailed for 10 years (and righty so). The root cause is ******s who spend time looking at their phone and I've seen tons of British people do it and it really winds me up however the daily mail has said it's because he was foreign then proceeded to this front page http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ruckers-using-phones-50mph-law-toughened.html

Another recent controversy was a bunch of screened child migrants looked older than what they were and The Scum again prayed on our root fears saying their facial recognition software said they were older. Never mind I want to school with a Greek who could easily pass of as in his early 20's when 15 and grew a bear better than I could to my late 20's (yes I'll admit some of those pictures looked dubious but I have to rely on the person screening them is actually doing their job).

These people are rejecting traditional politics because they've been so disfranchised true but they clinging to viewpoint built out of racism and xenophobia because it's far easier to blame foreigners than look at the actual root causes of problems. And sorry but yes some a praying upon those with below average intelligence because they can't understand the complexity of how things need to be fixed (I don't have the answers, do you?).

We have a media that constantly perpetuates myths and half-truths about foreigners and other religions to sell papers and that leads to further problems. And there has been a rise in my view of racist and xenophobic views in this country especially in the past 5-10 years.


There are legitimate problems people are facing and successive governments have been screwing them but we are being sold lies as the cause of the solution to those problems.



In other Brexit news foreign alcohol is going up 20% wholesale cost in the coming weeks. I get feeling of the ***anic after it's seen iceberg but can't turn in time to stop hitting it. But then us 'Remoaners" aren't allowed to have opinion anymore.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think they have it right, the issue is that it commemorates wars since 1945, it has very negative connotations for many people in fellow member nations such as Ireland, Northern Ireland, Afghanistan and Iraq. If it was only to commemorate the World Wars they'd have gone too far.


From the Lions thread:


I think FIFA were right to be fair, not that it is likely to happen but if England had a poppy on their shirt while playing Iraq or Afghanistan, who are both members of FIFA, it'd be a bit of an insult.

I agree with that Remembrance Day is technically different to the poppy appeal.

Although if both England and Scotland are fine with it i could see why they should go ahead.

But as said FIFA deal with a lot of nations and it doesn't take a lot for there to be a major falling out.

(Not like FIFA can afford to take more hits either).







Meh the only forign achol I buy now is Champagne. (Guinness is overrated and I can live without it).

Although I don't mind the Aussie wines.

 

[ncurd]

Jon Snow must be very happy this year not to catch the ire of the poppy police as FIFA have stepped in instead.

Lets be honest the only war that was close to 100% justifiable in History was WW2 and most of that was our own making and we certainly didn't take part initally out of some great alturistic reason. Inventing and using nukes was hardly a crowning glory either.

The poppy is a symbol of rememberance for the British people of remember those who have fallen in service to this country. I always think of it as symbol to the futility of war and usual needless loss of life, how we should only commit to conflict when it's required. I'm never entirely sure I buy the "defending our country" as I'm unsure how many times they've actually been doing that. I buy one every year.

However it is a political statement and anyone who says otherwise is in complete denial, FIFA and Jon Snow are entirely correct. It's used as a stick to beat anyone every year for not being British enough. I find the entire poppy police section of society as revoulting facists. It's not a choice in Britain its a requirement go on live TV without one and that's it your scum even if wardrobe forgot to stick it on your lapel 5 minuites ago.

Sorry little more angry about it this year as an ex-seviceman at work sent round an e-mail yesterday shaming everyone who had not acquired one yet.



I'll finish this post by saying I do buy one every year, I usually only wear it on Novemeber 11th and Rememberance Sunday as those are the days I pay my respect by observing a silence. I refuse obsteiently to be shamed into wearing more often by a bunch of people who claim I'm not being British enough for how I chose to act.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

We are probably on the same page but i'll bite.
It's not any secretary of state... it's a secretary of state that couldn't even differentiate her personal email account from her work one.
It's the secretary of state that deleted 30,000 emails.

Not sure if you are into IT, but do you know how hard it is to delete, i mean, completely delete that amount of data?
Let me put it in blunt terms: it is impossible, yes, impossible to do what she did by accident. It takes a certain level of computer literacy she does not have to do that.

People do not chose Trump because they like Trump. Some will vote Trump because they dislike Hillary more, but a considerable amount of people will vote Trump because he represents some sort of change.
It might be a bad change, and in this case it probably will be, but they are done, absolutely done with politics as usual and this is exactly what Hillary represents.


Well, as far as i am aware, in order to change taxes or declare war, you need congressional approval. You can send troops but there is a tangible limit to what he can and cannot do, regardless of whether he gives a damm or not.


Labeling as ignorant is not understanding the root of the problem.
The problem here is not what Trump is doing, what what the entire political system has done over the last 30 years. Blaming things on "the right", Trump, GOP, is just dodging the issue.

A very similar thing happened with Brexit. The people who lost still don't understand why they lost and all they can care to mumble is "Racists", "uneducated", "xenophboes" and idiots. That failure to understand the underlying voting drivers is what cost them the referendum.

change taxes yes, declare war no... president has the ability to send troops where ever he wants for a limited amount of time and once they are there its really hard for congress to gain the political capital to overturn that action

not to mention with our drones we don't actually have to send troops anywhere, the CIC can actually order any target to be destroyed and the military will follow those orders

i understand why people would vote trump, the so-called "system" has screwed them over since this country was founded and they feel the need for change
that being said these people hate socialism and want the government out of the economy yet throw temper tantrums every time the free markets dictates that companies should be moving jobs overseas to cheaper labor, if people actually want to survive in a free market they need skills and education.
As long as these people continue to expect the government to protect their jobs by limiting free trade i'm not going to feel bad for them.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I think they have it right, the issue is that it commemorates wars since 1945, it has very negative connotations for many people in fellow member nations such as Ireland, Northern Ireland, Afghanistan and Iraq. If it was only to commemorate the World Wars they'd have gone too far.

I don't believe that the request was denied on that basis, it was denied on the basis that FIFA have a ban on religious, commercial and political logos on shirts. I would argue that a poppy is none of these things, but can see that the contrary could easily be argued.

I tend to agree that allowing it would be opening a can of worms.

My only issue is that they rules are consistently applied. The first example of a shirt likely to contain a religious symbol that cam to mind was:

If FIFA don't consider the Star of David to be a religious symbol, I would argue that they're being rather overzealous in their application of their rules in this instance.

 

[McTallshort]

I think they have it right, the issue is that it commemorates wars since 1945, it has very negative connotations for many people in fellow member nations such as Ireland, Northern Ireland, Afghanistan and Iraq. If it was only to commemorate the World Wars they'd have gone too far.


From the Lions thread:


I think FIFA were right to be fair, not that it is likely to happen but if England had a poppy on their shirt while playing Iraq or Afghanistan, who are both members of FIFA, it'd be a bit of an insult.

It doesnt commemorate any war. It commemorates the war dead. And why would someone in Ireland but so upset about something after 1945? Seem to remember it had its independance and long time before that

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I do think the poppy appeal is very much a cop out used by all governments not to fund its veterans properly.

I have heard some stories about the BRL that don't put it in a nice light either.

I tend to remember the Fallen out of respect and think about the cost caused by its leaders the conscription in this country esp the village regiments they used to do was shocking and caused town to have there entire male population basically wiped out in one day WW2 again the failure of leaders. Ncurd VE was achieved without the use of Nukes though so there is that.

(My Great Grandfather was a Japanese POW I remember my grandma telling me some horror stories of the nightmares and physical condition when he got back so that sticks with me quite a bit).

 

[McTallshort]

Jon Snow must be very happy this year not to catch the ire of the poppy police as FIFA have stepped in instead.

Lets be honest the only war that was close to 100% justifiable in History was WW2 and most of that was our own making and we certainly didn't take part initally out of some great alturistic reason. Inventing and using nukes was hardly a crowning glory either.

The poppy is a symbol of rememberance for the British people of remember those who have fallen in service to this country. I always think of it as symbol to the futility of war and usual needless loss of life, how we should only commit to conflict when it's required. I'm never entirely sure I buy the "defending our country" as I'm unsure how many times they've actually been doing that. I buy one every year.

However it is a political statement and anyone who says otherwise is in complete denial, FIFA and Jon Snow are entirely correct. It's used as a stick to beat anyone every year for not being British enough. I find the entire poppy police section of society as revoulting facists. It's not a choice in Britain its a requirement go on live TV without one and that's it your scum even if wardrobe forgot to stick it on your lapel 5 minuites ago.

Sorry little more angry about it this year as an ex-seviceman at work sent round an e-mail yesterday shaming everyone who had not acquired one yet.



I'll finish this post by saying I do buy one every year, I usually only wear it on Novemeber 11th and Rememberance Sunday as those are the days I pay my respect by observing a silence. I refuse obsteiently to be shamed into wearing more often by a bunch of people who claim I'm not being British enough for how I chose to act.

I agree. As an ex service man I would never make a point of shaming anyone into wearing a poppy. It's a personal choice and we are lucky to have a choice in this country..... Largely thanks to those who served in WW2.

 

[ncurd]

Trying to ban a countries flag would be rather problematic for religious symbols not just for Israel. How many countries flags are Christian symbols (England, Scotlands and Nother Irelands are, the British flag is a cimbination)? How man contain Islamic? I think a few contain Bhuddist....

Like I said Tigs nearly 100% justifiable, I don't think our reasons for kicking off in the first place were alturistic but overall the massive net win of defeating the Axis powers was fundamentality good for humanity. Whilst the treatment of PoW's was sickening I don't think justifies attacking a civilian population with nukes.
Overall though go WW2!

It commmorates the British war dead in wholely poltical wars though, I understand why us British feel the need to pay our respects but we need to understand that some people internationally will find offensive as symbolises when those people killed their people.

 

[McTallshort]

Trying to ban a countries flag would be rather problematic for religious symbols not just for Israel. How many countries flags are Christian symbols (England, Scotlands and Nother Irelands are, the British flag is a cimbination)? How man contain Islamic? I think a few contain Bhuddist....

Like I said Tigs nearly 100% justifiable, I don't think our reasons for kicking off in the first place were alturistic but overall the massive net win of defeating the Axis powers was fundamentality good for humanity. Whilst the treatment of PoW's was sickening I don't think justifies attacking a civilian population with nukes.
Overall though go WW2!

It commmorates the British war dead in wholely poltical wars though, I understand why us British feel the need to pay our respects but we need to understand that some people internationally will find offensive as symbolises when those people killed their people.

Sorry how can commmorating your war dead be offensive? And if someone finds it offence they can frankly **** off. O wouldnt have any objection to the Argentinians commmorating their dead from the falklands or even the IRA commmorating theirs.

On nukes. Dont think you fully grasp what the world situation during WW2 or have any understanding of the allied casulaties during the island hoping misson against the Japanese.

 

[ncurd]

Sorry how can commmorating your war dead be offensive? And if someone finds it offence they can frankly **** off. O wouldnt have any objection to the Argentinians commmorating their dead from the falklands or even the IRA commmorating theirs.

On nukes. Dont think you fully grasp what the world situation during WW2 or have any understanding of the allied casulaties during the island hoping misson against the Japanese.

The first question your making my opinion for me I don't understand why people find it offensive. However FIFA band political symbol because people do and they don't have to make a case by case judgement on them blanket ban works best.

On the seoncd ummm yes I do whether nukes saved lives (and either way were talking military lives over civilian lives and there is a point there) it is massively contended by historical scholar's of which there is no one definitive answer. I'd struggle to ever justify massive civilian casulties of that scale to save military lives. I know why some do but I don't.

 

[Groundhog]

Why would Irish people be upset about something the British army did after 1945? 26 unarmed civilians marching against internment in Derry might have something to do with it. Collusion between the British army and loyalist murder gangs. I could go on, but I think we can accept it was an idiotic statement. There's quite understandable reasons guys like James McClean will never wear a poppy. He grew up in the bogside.
If it was me I'd be happy to honor the British war dead of WW1 and WW2. I'd wear a poppy and put the ugliness above to the side because it's really not what the spirit of the poppy is meant to represent. At the same time, there is this level of bullying which has come to surround anyone who steps even slightly out of line with regards to the poppy. It should be a choice to wear it.

 

[Gavin]

It doesnt commemorate any war. It commemorates the war dead. And why would someone in Ireland but so upset about something after 1945? Seem to remember it had its independance and long time before that

The poppy has been used since 1921to commemorate military soldiers, alive or dead. I did read an article that because it has been used and sold by the British Legion who use the money to help existing British Army soldiers, injured or not.

I can understand why it is controversial in Ireland when you consider what the British Army did during the Troubles.