A Political Thread pt. 2

[Reiser99]

UN condemns 'large number of civilian casualties' in north Gaza as Israel steps up campaign

Ten people were killed and 40 injured after Israel attacked a food distribution centre in the Jabalia refugee camp, the UNRWA says

www.bbc.co.uk

At what point is Israel just the war monger?

 

[General Melchett]

It's the lies and deceit from the Israeli leadership I have an issue with. They have made several assurances to the US and the west behind the scenes and then immediately went back on their word. They claimed that Gaza would be over in a few days and here we are over a year later. They claimed that their incursion into southern Lebanon would be 'limited and targeted'. A day later they are bombing residential buildings in Beirut.

Unfortunately we are at the stage where the initial shock has worn off just like with Ukraine. The Israeli far right Govt are winning, feel emboldened and no doubt invincible. They also know the US election is weeks away (voting already started) and will think they can do what they like with Biden/Harris having very little leverage to rein them in. **** me, even relations with the UN are in tatters.

I get that Iran are a bad actor, a serious security threat and have deliberately tried to ruin Israel's improving relations with neighbours in the region. Hamas are nothing more than cowardly scum. I also understand that Israel have to re-establish military deterrents as a show of strength to Iran. I heard a commentator make a great analogy the other day. Einstein said trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result was the definition of insanity - making reference to the diplomatic efforts made by the same old men in charge of both Israel and Iran. Israel also has no political plan for the day after this all ends. They are just bulldozing ahead and pretty much guaranteeing more resentment and hatred towards Israel in the region for another generation after the likes of Netanyahu eventually die off.

 

[Which Tyler]

At what point is Israel just the war monger?

"the war monger" - 6-8 months ago.
"'just' the war monger" - not for the foreseeable, partially by design.

Currently, of course, they're genocidal war mongers who've invaded a sovereign nation without due cause.

Oh, and before I get jumped on - Hamas are bad, even worse than Israel, Hezbollah too. Hamas isn't Gaza, Hezbollah isn't Lebanon.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Israel-Lebanon live updates: Hezbollah drone attack kills four Israeli soldiers, as Israeli strikes kill 51 in Lebanon

The attack on Binyamina, south of Haifa, is the deadliest on an Israeli base since Israel stepped up attacks on Hezbollah last month.

www.bbc.co.uk

Israel actively targeting UN bases. They are on the list to becoming international pariahs. I guess the UN force doesn't contain any western soldiers, particularly US, or they may have been a bit more careful.

 

[Welsh Exile]

"the war monger" - 6-8 months ago.
"'just' the war monger" - not for the foreseeable, partially by design.

Currently, of course, they're genocidal war mongers who've invaded a sovereign nation without due cause.

Oh, and before I get jumped on - Hamas are bad, even worse than Israel, Hezbollah too. Hamas isn't Gaza, Hezbollah isn't Lebanon.

The only thing I would jump on is your use of language in saying "genocidal" war. Interesting use of those 2 words there.

I don't know if you were being hyperbolic or whether you have any evidence to present to show what Isreal are doing is genocidal?

I agree that Netenyahu is sadly leading Isreal down a path of self destruction and is doing itself no favours but even the cynic in me would question genocide in this instance as it would attract even more unwanted attention if it started mowing down tens of, if not hundreds of thousands, of civilians.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The only thing I would jump on is your use of language in saying "genocidal" war. Interesting use of those 2 words there.

I don't know if you were being hyperbolic or whether you have any evidence to present to show what Isreal are doing is genocidal?

I agree that Netenyahu is sadly leading Isreal down a path of self destruction and is doing itself no favours but even the cynic in me would question genocide in this instance as it would attract even more unwanted attention if it started mowing down tens of, if not hundreds of thousands, of civilians.

The thing is they have killed 10,000s of civilians... Whilst it's not genocidal in the sense of exterminating them, they are hitting things like schools and hospitals far too frequently for it to be accidental and are likely looking to displace rather than exterminate the people.

Hell, in northern Gaza they have openly said they are going to siege the entire north of the country and anyone who hasn't evacuated is fair game. There are about 400,000 people still there.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The thing is they have killed 10,000s of civilians... Whilst it's not genocidal in the sense of exterminating them, they are hitting things like schools and hospitals far too frequently for it to be accidental and are likely looking to displace rather than exterminate the people.

Hell, in northern Gaza they have openly said they are going to siege the entire north of the country and anyone who hasn't evacuated is fair game. There are about 400,000 people still there.

The problem is that Hamas have mastered the art of imbedding themselves into a civilian population so when you set up military infrastructure beneath a hospital or a school it's a bit of a tricky one isn't it.

I'll wait for some more reliable numbers to come out but a general consensus seems to be about 35-40k dead with no distinction between combatants and civilians and Isreal saying they've killed anywhere between 12k-20k Hamas fighters. If that is true then that's a pretty good civilian to combatant death ratio given it's in a tiny urban area. It certainly doesn't suggest, as neither does the overall death toll over the course of a whole year, that Isreal are in the process of committing a genocide.

Again, if evidence comes out to show a top down lead approach from Netenyahu to generals to foot soldiers, where the aim has clearly been to not target Hamas and their sole aim being to wipe out Palestinians then I will naturally change my mind. At the moment, I think people have a hard time between distinguishing between words like war and genocide or war crimes (which Isreal have clearly committed) and genocide

 

[General Melchett]

It's not just the number of deaths and the totally disproportionate response either. It's the reckless destruction of people's lives as well as the deliberate denial of humanitarian aid which has been used as a strategic lever. Palestinians (and now Lebanese) mentally scarred for life given who they have lost and what they witnessed. I have seen countless news reports of Palestinians told to evacuate areas within 5-10 minutes. They move out of harm's way and are told to evacuate again and then again. Many are now deciding to give up and just stay in northern Gaza due to exasperation. Netanyahu has guaranteed contempt towards Israel from certain quarters for another generation. All because he wants to cling on to power and avoid being thrown in jail. He hasn't failed to find a diplomatic solution - he has refused to engage in diplomacy. It's clear that he's trying to remove the two state solution as an option from the table despite the fact that all of Israel's allies support it. He doesn't give a **** about the hostages in Gaza and is using them as an excuse to realise his political goals.

There is no justification for bombing Beirut. Hamas and Hezbollah are worse than Israel but Hamas aren't in Lebanon and Hezbollah weren't involved in October 7th. Now a sovereign state is being bombed with innocent Lebanese children dying because the war monger thinks he's above international law.

I've said it before but the US election is absolutely critical. Netanyahu and his far right cronies now think they are untouchable because they are winning. A Trump wins just strengthens his position. It disgusts me when Netanyahu sits in front a camera and gaslights people into thinking that Israel shares the same values as us. I know Israel have unique threats on their doorstep and have to fight fire with fire but by **** he's is one evil power hungry unscrupulous motherfucker.

 

[Welsh Exile]

It's not just the number of deaths and the totally disproportionate response either. It's the reckless destruction of people's lives as well as the deliberate denial of humanitarian aid which has been used as a strategic lever. Palestinians (and now Lebanese) mentally scarred for life given who they have lost and what they witnessed. I have seen countless news reports of Palestinians told to evacuate areas within 5-10 minutes. They move out of harm's way and are told to evacuate again and then again. Many are now deciding to give up and just stay in northern Gaza due to exasperation. Netanyahu has guaranteed contempt towards Israel from certain quarters for another generation. All because he wants to cling on to power and avoid being thrown in jail. He hasn't failed to find a diplomatic solution - he has refused to engage in diplomacy. It's clear that he's trying to remove the two state solution as an option from the table despite the fact that all of Israel's allies support it.

There is no justification for bombing Beirut. Hamas and Hezbollah are worse than Israel but Hamas aren't in Lebanon and Hezbollah weren't involved in October 7th. Now a sovereign state is being bombed with innocent Lebanese children dying because the war monger thinks he's above international law.

I've said it before but the US election is absolutely critical. Netanyahu and his far right cronies now think they are untouchable because they are winning. A Trump wins just strengthens his position. It disgusts me when Netanyahu sits in front a camera and gaslights people into thinking that Israel shares the same values as us. I know Israel have unique threats on their doorstep and have to fight fire with fire but by **** he's is one evil power hungry unscrupulous motherfucker.

I don’t know how many times I have to say this but genocide is exclusively concerned with intent. That’s it. There’s nothing complex about it. You either think the IDF are directly bombing hospitals to kills kids because that is their sole aim (from a top down structural point of view) or you believe they are engaged in a war with a terrorist organisation that uses humans shields and in their attempt to target them they kill civilians. Now naturally Isreal know that civilians will die due to Hamas’ tactics but that is totally different to what the word genocide means.

We can have a separate argument about whether we think Israel’s response is good or not and other things they could’ve potentially done but that’s a separate discussion. I’d love nothing more than for Netenyahu to be locked up and a more progressive leadership take control but even if that happens do you think Hezbollah or Hamas stop firing rockets into Isreal?

I agree, it does appear Netenyahu and co have no interest in a 2 state solution which mirrors the Palestinian position for the last 70 years or so and both of these sides are perfectly tuned now to constantly fight each other. Nothing will change until brave leadership from both sides take control and force meaningful peace talks.

 

[General Melchett]

I don't know how many times I have to say this but genocide is exclusively concerned with intent. That's it. There's nothing complex about it. You either think the IDF are directly bombing hospitals to kills kids because that is their sole aim (from a top down structural point of view) or you believe they are engaged in a war with a terrorist organisation that uses humans shields and in their attempt to target them they kill civilians. Now naturally Isreal know that civilians will die due to Hamas' tactics but that is totally different to what the word genocide means.

We can have a separate argument about whether we think Israel's response is good or not and other things they could've potentially done but that's a separate discussion. I'd love nothing more than for Netenyahu to be locked up and a more progressive leadership take control but even if that happens do you think Hezbollah or Hamas stop firing rockets into Isreal?

I agree, it does appear Netenyahu and co have no interest in a 2 state solution which mirrors the Palestinian position for the last 70 years or so and both of these sides are perfectly tuned now to constantly fight each other. Nothing will change until brave leadership from both sides take control and force meaningful peace talks.

At the risk of sounding defensive, my post wasn't specifically genocide related and I deliberately didn't reference the word because I am conscious it has been covered already. It was more an assessment of Netanyahu's handling/escalation of the conflict, his lack of respect for international law and and of course his motives which are rightly attracting condemnation.

 

[Welsh Exile]

At the risk of sounding defensive, my post wasn't specifically genocide related and I deliberately didn't reference the word because I am conscious it has been covered already. It was more an assessment of Netanyahu's handling/escalation of the conflict, his lack of respect for international law and and of course his motives which are rightly attracting condemnation.

Ah ok, I'm only concerned with people misusing this word and casually using it like it's some kind of fact.

 

[Gavin]

Redirect Notice

Surrender or starve (including the civilians). Seems pretty genocidal to me

 

[Welsh Exile]

Redirect Notice

Surrender or starve (including the civilians). Seems pretty genocidal to me

Again, you're totally misunderstanding what genocide actually is. I'll say it again. ITS INTENT.

If the intent is to kill militants then it's not genocide. Now, IF they decide to do this course of action it would probably fall under "war crime" but unless there was proof that they have no intention of killing militants and are only concerned with killing civilians it wouldn't be genocide.

I'll explain it another way, a good recent example of a clear cut genocide was on October 7th. How can we be so sure on this, well, firstly, Hamas' express aim is to eradicate all Jews and abolish the state of Israel (they tell us this proudly with their chests out) , however, you need more than words to prove a genocide, naturally actions are more important than words so let's look at the actions. On October 7th Hamas terrorists went door to door executing and raping civilians, not IDF soldiers, civilians. If there was no Israeli defence then they would've carried on until every Jew in Israel was dead. That's genocide.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If the intent is to kill militants then it's not genocide. Now, IF they decide to do this course of action it would probably fall under "war crime" but unless there was proof that they have no intention of killing militants and are only concerned with killing civilians it wouldn't be genocide.

This isn't true. You're totally seperating intent from action which is incorrect. Their primary motivation might be to kill militants but if they pursue a course of action that is guaranteed to kill civilians en masse its genocide.

 

[Welsh Exile]

This isn't true. You're totally seperating intent from action which is incorrect. Their primary motivation might be to kill militants but if they pursue a course of action that is guaranteed to kill civilians en masse its genocide.

That's not my understanding. Dolus Specialis is the highly specialised intent needed to prove genocide in an international court. The rest outside of that falls under war crimes, for the most part.

Again, I find it interesting that the Isreali's are always the ones labeled genocidal when only one spurious case from SA has been brought against it (that I'll happily bet you £1000, under current info, they will never in a million years get convicted for) but Hamas nah, they are freedom fighters man.

 

[Welsh Exile]

From Wiki:

For an act to be classified as genocide (under the Genocide Convention), it is essential to demonstrate that the perpetrators had a deliberate and specific aim (dolus specialis) to physically destroy the group based on its real or perceived nationality, ethnicity, race, or religion.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

From Wiki:

For an act to be classified as genocide (under the Genocide Convention), it is essential to demonstrate that the perpetrators had a deliberate and specific aim (dolus specialis) to physically destroy the group based on its real or perceived nationality, ethnicity, race, or religion.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf

why use wikipedia when you can use the actual document. The Israeli actions the past year fit into part c of article II.

 

[Welsh Exile]

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf

why use wikipedia when you can use the actual document. The Israeli actions the past year fit into part c of article II.

Well I would get down the bookies if I were you and put you house on Isreal to be convicted of genocide. It seems open and shut.

 

[Welsh Exile]

If you want genocide to mean war crimes now then fine, well actually its not fine as words have meanings. Yes things are going to be up for debate but I don't know how you can look at the clear genocides in WW2, Rwanda, Burma, South east Asia and the like and then look at the war in the Middle East and come to the conclusion they are the same thing. Its actually mental imho.

 

[McTallshort]

From Wiki:

For an act to be classified as genocide (under the Genocide Convention), it is essential to demonstrate that the perpetrators had a deliberate and specific aim (dolus specialis) to physically destroy the group based on its real or perceived nationality, ethnicity, race, or religion.

Not genocide but certainly ethnic cleansing.