A Political Thread pt. 2

[Leonormous Boozer]

Concerned with potential plans? As I've said, I will wait and see if said plans come to fruition rather than forming an opinion on something that might not happen. If it does then sure, not good. A war crime.

You're right it's not numbers, it's intent. I mentioned it as you rightly keep mentioning there is a power imbalance here from a technological point of view and in over a year Isreal has left the vast majority of civilian population in a tiny area where they're used a human shields, alive.

And you have clearly displayed that you don't understand what intent means again and again and again. Twice here too in fact.

What happened before the Nakba?

A unilateral plantation.

What does "defending itself" look like? Can you elaborate?

I clearly explained.

Edit: apologies I misread your post. You didn't engage with the question and instead again shifted blame onto Isreal for October 7th no less. It was their fault for letting it happen. Just say what you really think, Isreal doesn't have a right to defend itself.

Again, I clearly explained this. I do question why multiple intelligence warnings were ignored and the most sophisticated defence system on the planet was caught out by flying machines that look like they were designed by Da Vinci. I'm not the only one either, its a point of contention in Israeli politics.

 

[McTallshort]

See, this is where I come all of this from, a militant atheist point of view and I really think one of the many things that makes this conflict unique is the specific problem that jihadism brings. I can see why people compare to the IRA or SA but they really are nothing alike.

Wrong I'm afraid. The power people in Hamas are exactly the same as the power people in the IRA. They exploit people in a bad situation to gain power, they use jihad but it's only a means to an end and they are just a symptom bad governance.

 

[Welsh Exile]

And you have clearly displayed that you don't understand what intent means again and again and again. Twice here too in fact.

A unilateral plantation.

I clearly explained.

Again, I clearly explained this. I do question why multiple intelligence warnings were ignored and the most sophisticated defence system on the planet was caught out by flying machines that look like they were designed by Da Vinci. I'm not the only one either, its a point of contention in Israeli politics.

I haven't and you saying I have doesn't prove it. I think you just think war crimes and genocide are the same thing to be honest.

So don't want to engage in the Nakba question and don't want to engage with the other question for a second time and seem to be taking some weird conspiracy theory stance. And I'm the bad faith one?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Wrong I'm afraid. The power people in Hamas are exactly the same as the power people in the IRA. They exploit people in a bad situation to gain power, they use jihad but it's only a means to an end and they are just a symptom bad governance.

Yeah, just fundamentally disagree with this to be honest. The evidence of the difference in the behaviour, directly motivated by their religion, being a big one.

 

[McTallshort]

Yeah, just fundamentally disagree with this to be honest. The evidence of the difference in the behaviour, directly motivated by their religion, being a big one.

Their religion is just a tool used by those in power.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Their religion is just a tool used by those in power.

I assume you don't mean it's purely a tool, as in, the jihadism thing is all just an act kind of thing? Surely you must believe that they believe in at least some of their religious teachings/interpretations?

Personally I think it's both. I agree they use it as a tool but they also deeply believe in most, if not all, of what they say. And what they say is a hell of a lot different to the IRA or Nelson Mandela.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I haven't and you saying I have doesn't prove it. I think you just think war crimes and genocide are the same thing to be honest.

I explained that before also and you just kept asking who starved.

So don't want to engage in the Nakba question

I did.

and don't want to engage with the other question for a second time

I addressed it already.

and seem to be taking some weird conspiracy theory stance. And I'm the bad faith one?

What conspiracy? It's factual that Israel ignored multiple intelligence warnings about 7 October.

 

[General Melchett]

Netanyahu has to own a big share of October 7th. The Egyptian President warned him personally and he shrugged it off. There were several other intelligence warnings that were ignored. The cynic in me thinks he knew it was coming and let it happen which gave him the excuse he was waiting for. Does his failure to stop it give him license to do what he's doing now? Not IMO. He has no interest in a peace deal or a ceasefire because it would scupper his broader plans. Every time a peace deal was close he would move the goal posts at the last minute and scupper it. He is happy for the hostages to rot.

Since this war has come into the public domain it's clear that Netanyahu is responsible for the vast majority of the escalation and provocations. Yes it takes two to tango but he isn't interested in diplomacy which is the biggest problem of all.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I explained that before also and you just kept asking who starved.

I did.

I addressed it already.

What conspiracy? It's factual that Israel ignored multiple intelligence warnings about 7 October.

Ok let me rephrase, I think the original question was what do you think a proportional response would've been?

Given the events of October 7th, what do you think a proportional response would have been?

I mention conspiracy as the implication in what you said is that they deliberately avoided warnings so they could do what they wanted. But you were pretty vague, maybe you could share what kind of questions you've been asking yourself about this and that might give me a better idea of your thoughts.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Netanyahu has to own a big share of October 7th. The Egyptian President warned him personally and he shrugged it off. There were several other intelligence warnings that were ignored. The cynic in me thinks he knew it was coming and let it happen which gave him the excuse he was waiting for. Does his failure to stop it give him license to do what he's doing now? Not IMO. He has no interest in a peace deal or a ceasefire because it would scupper his broader plans. Every time a peace deal was close he would move the goal posts at the last minute and scupper it. He is happy for the hostages to rot.

Since this war has come into the public domain it's clear that Netanyahu is responsible for the vast majority of the escalation and provocations. Yes it takes two to tango but he isn't interested in diplomacy which is the biggest problem of all.

What do you mean by own a big share of? Never believe conspiracy where incompetency or negligence can easily explain the events. Sure, some kind of professional (for lack of a better word) responsibility has to be shared but a moral responsibility? Would you say that woman who was the head of the secret service has to own a big share of the attempted assassination on Trump?

For me it's pretty straight forward. Isreal clearly has a right to defend itsel and destroying Hamas after October 7th was a legitimate military objective that any other country would do after an attack like that.

If we (I mean a collective we here not you and me but can be xxx) can agree on that then we can talk about whether we think Isreal have gone wrong and what, if anything, you think Isreal could've done differently.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ok let me rephrase, I think the original question was what do you think a proportional response would've been?

Given the events of October 7th, what do you think a proportional response would have been?

A Political Thread pt. 2

That's not my understanding. Dolus Specialis is the highly specialised intent needed to prove genocide in an international court. The rest outside of that falls under war crimes, for the most part. Again, I find it interesting that the Isreali's are always the ones labeled genocidal when only...

www.therugbyforum.com

I mention conspiracy as the implication in what you said is that they deliberately avoided warnings so they could do what they wanted. But you were pretty vague, maybe you could share what kind of questions you've been asking yourself about this and that might give me a better idea of your thoughts.

A Political Thread pt. 2

Concerned with potential plans? As I've said, I will wait and see if said plans come to fruition rather than forming an opinion on something that might not happen. If it does then sure, not good. A war crime. You're right it's not numbers, it's intent. I mentioned it as you rightly keep...

www.therugbyforum.com

This sums it up for me too.

I also believe that from a conspiracy POV, it's well within Netanyahu's and Mossad's wheelhouse. But that's a hypothetical in the same vein as your "if they switched places" argument so not something to engage in here.

 

[General Melchett]

What do you mean by own a big share of? Never believe conspiracy where incompetency or negligence can easily explain the events. Sure, some kind of professional (for lack of a better word) responsibility has to be shared but a moral responsibility? Would you say that woman who was the head of the secret service has to own a big share of the attempted assassination on Trump?

For me it's pretty straight forward. Isreal clearly has a right to defend itsel and destroying Hamas after October 7th was a legitimate military objective that any other country would do after an attack like that.

If we (I mean a collective we here not you and me but can be xxx) can agree on that then we can talk about whether we think Isreal have gone wrong and what, if anything, you think Isreal could've done differently.

How could any leader be that incompetent or negligent? The Egyptian President is on record as saying that he pre warned Netanyahu. He sat back and let it happen. It beggars belief. He has to own the spectacular failure to prevent it. Of course Hamas are responsible for carrying out the attack but Netanyahu failed spectacularly in preventing it.

We can argue all day about what would have constituted a proportionate response but the fact remains that Netanyahu has refused to engage in diplomacy. He is a populist politician dragging the war out as he aims to carry out his lifelong political goals, hang on to power and stay out of jail.

 

[Welsh Exile]

A Political Thread pt. 2

That's not my understanding. Dolus Specialis is the highly specialised intent needed to prove genocide in an international court. The rest outside of that falls under war crimes, for the most part. Again, I find it interesting that the Isreali's are always the ones labeled genocidal when only...

www.therugbyforum.com

A Political Thread pt. 2

Concerned with potential plans? As I've said, I will wait and see if said plans come to fruition rather than forming an opinion on something that might not happen. If it does then sure, not good. A war crime. You're right it's not numbers, it's intent. I mentioned it as you rightly keep...

www.therugbyforum.com

This sums it up for me too.

I also believe that from a conspiracy POV, it's well within Netanyahu's and Mossad's wheelhouse. But that's a hypothetical in the same vein as your "if they switched places" argument so not something to engage in here.

Sorry, is this your answer to what a proportional would've been? If you really don't want to answer it that much just say, or don't reply.

I'll rephrase one more time, assuming that the events of October 7th occurred due to a lack of intelligence oversight/due diligence, what do you think a proportional response would've been?

 

[Welsh Exile]

How could any leader be that incompetent or negligent? The Egyptian President is on record as saying that he pre warned Netanyahu. He sat back and let it happen. It beggars belief. He has to own it. Of course Hamas are responsible for carrying out the attack but Netanyahu failed spectacularly in preventing it.

We can argue all day about what would have constituted a proportionate response but the fact remains that Netanyahu has refused to engage in diplomacy. He is a populist politician dragging the war out as he aims to carry out his lifelong political goals, hang on to power and stay out of jail.

Look, we're pretty much on the same page as far as Netenyahu is concerned but I think you fail to realise the position Isreal is in to be honest.

Let's pretend that Netenyahu and his boys all did a load of acid on October 7th and they all decided they would do nothing to respond and instead would reach out and diplomatically engaged with Hamas. How do you think that plays out? Again, I'd love nothing more than to see Netenyahu in jail and I can agree with most of what you say about him but you (not you personally) have to engage with the facts on the ground and the overall reality of the situation.

 

[General Melchett]

Look, we're pretty much on the same page as far as Netenyahu is concerned but I think you fail to realise the position Isreal is in to be honest.

Let's pretend that Netenyahu and his boys all did a load of acid on October 7th and they all decided they would do nothing to respond and instead would reach out and diplomatically engaged with Hamas. How do you think that plays out? Again, I'd love nothing more than to see Netenyahu in jail and I can agree with most of what you say about him but you (not you personally) have to engage with the facts on the ground and the overall reality of the situation.

I'm fully aware of how challenging it is for Israel to have such hostile neighbours whose goal it is to wipe them out. They need strong military deterrents to deal with that.

I'm also not saying diplomacy was the only solution the day after October 7th. Yes a military response against Hamas was fully justified and expected and we can all argue about what constitutes proportionate but wars and conflicts always end via diplomacy. He's had umpteen chances to secure a ceasefire and the release of more hostages and every time he's pulled the plug at the last minute. Why is that? He's a populist politician and not a diplomat and therein lies the problem.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Sorry, is this your answer to what a proportional would've been? If you really don't want to answer it that much just say, or don't reply.

I'll rephrase one more time, assuming that the events of October 7th occurred due to a lack of intelligence oversight/due diligence, what do you think a proportional response would've been?

I've given enough information in my linked post. It's not something that can be quantified but I can comfortably say we've gone beyond proportionality.

Bombing won't destroy Hamas or get hostages back. Palestinian civilians shouldn't pay the price for what at this point is just cold blooded, angry and racist revenge.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I've given enough information in my linked post. It's not something that can be quantified but I can comfortably say we've gone beyond proportionality.

Bombing won't destroy Hamas or get hostages back. Palestinian civilians shouldn't pay the price for what at this point is just cold blooded, angry and racist revenge.

That took a lot of work for a I don't know but at least I got a half answer in the end.

Racist revenge. It's just such extreme rhetoric I can't take it seriously.

By the way, the Nakba thing from earlier that you were missing was Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq and co all invading Isreal and trying to wipe them out. They lost, then the Nakba happened. Useful bit of context I find.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm fully aware of how challenging it is for Israel to have such hostile neighbours whose goal it is to wipe them out. They need strong military deterrents to deal with that.

I'm also not saying diplomacy was the only solution the day after October 7th. Yes a military response against Hamas was fully justified and expected and we can all argue about what constitutes proportionate but wars and conflicts always end via diplomacy. He's had umpteen chances to secure a ceasefire and the release of more hostages and every time he's pulled the plug at the last minute. Why is that? He's a populist politician and not a diplomat and therein lies the problem.

I generally agree and sadly it's the same on the other side and has been since 48.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That took a lot of work for a I don't know but at least I got a half answer in the end.

You asked an impossible question to give a specific answer to and couldn't comprehend my answer. That wasn't the win you think it is lol.

Racist revenge. It's just such extreme rhetoric I can't take it seriously.

Racism and Palestinian lives on the list of things you can't take seriously, noted.

By the way, the Nakba thing from earlier that you were missing was Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq and co all invading Isreal and trying to wipe them out. They lost, then the Nakba happened. Useful bit of context I find.

Israel are the colonisers here. A bunch of Europeans forcibly took land in the middle east, that's the root cause of this. You know it is too is the mad thing.

 

[Welsh Exile]

You asked an impossible question to give a specific answer to and couldn't comprehend my answer. That wasn't the win you think it is lol.

Racism and Palestinian lives on the list of things you can't take seriously, noted.

Israel are the colonisers here. A bunch of Europeans forcibly took land in the middle east, that's the root cause of this. You know it is too is the mad thing.

It's really not an impossible question. I'm not even opposed to a "I don't know" answer to it but if you were engaging with the question honestly you could've given me some vague idea about what kind of response would've been justified in your opinion.

Do you wonder why most rational people/western politicians, don't engage in the kind of rhetoric that you did? I mean, I don't want to hold myself up to too high a standard but categorising something complex as racist revenge is just a bit silly to me but if you want to equate that with me not caring about racism or Palestinian lives then fine I guess.

I thought it was the Brits that stole the land?