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A Political Thread pt. 2

Welsh Exile said:
It's really not an impossible question. I'm not even opposed to a "I don't know" answer to it but if you were engaging with the question honestly you could've given me some vague idea about what kind of response would've been justified in your opinion.
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"At an absolute minimum Israel have been acting disproportionately since early May when they didn't engage in a ceasefire that would have got them their hostages back. In reality, far before that."

That's an reasonably definitive answer to be honest. Coupled with this I have provided a range in which I think a proportional response lies:-

"I fail to see what military objective Palestinian civilians are dying under bombfire for. This was evident within about 72 hours of 7 October when it was clear that Hamas had taken the hostages into their tunnels and that civilian life can't be leveraged over Hamas nor can they be bombed out of existance."

It's definitely a far more legitimate response than this:-

"Concerned with potential plans? As I've said, I will wait and see if said plans come to fruition rather than forming an opinion on something that might not happen. If it does then sure, not good. A war crime."

Where you failed to:

1. Realise that you were the person who initially entered into an argument based on plans that Netanyahu was considering having already asked deflecting questions in bad faith;

2. Comprehend the basic legal principal of intent (a qualified and, I'm pretty sure practicing lawyer pointed this particular one out to you too); and

3. Comprehend the basic legal principal of proportionality.

Welsh Exile said:
Do you wonder why most rational people/western politicians, don't engage in the kind of rhetoric that you did? I mean, I don't want to hold myself up to too high a standard but categorising something complex as racist revenge is just a bit silly to me but if you want to equate that with me not caring about racism or Palestinian lives then fine I guess.
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Politicians don't engage in it because they have to be diplomatic. I don't and I've seen enough videos of Israelis wishing death on all Palestinians to make up my mind. The whole conflict in the middle east boils down to race and religion.

You haven't even attempted to explain what extensive bombing of Gaza has achieved or why its justified when it isn't going to destroy Hamas. You haven't acknowledged that Palestinian lives that are being lost for nothing.
Welsh Exile said:
I thought it was the Brits that stole the land?
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1. Is Britain not in Europe?

2. Why are you deflecting from a factual statement. 85% of Israelis in 1948 were European.

Feel free to respond to this one but I'm happy with the points I've made and understanding of the subject matter and I'm signing out so your deflective questions (that I can assure you aren't nearly as effective a tool as you think) can be left out of it.
 
Leonormous Boozer said:
"At an absolute minimum Israel have been acting disproportionately since early May when they didn't engage in a ceasefire that would have got them their hostages back. In reality, far before that."

That's an reasonably definitive answer to be honest. Coupled with this I have provided a range in which I think a proportional response lies:-

"I fail to see what military objective Palestinian civilians are dying under bombfire for. This was evident within about 72 hours of 7 October when it was clear that Hamas had taken the hostages into their tunnels and that civilian life can't be leveraged over Hamas nor can they be bombed out of existance."

It's definitely a far more legitimate response than this:-

"Concerned with potential plans? As I've said, I will wait and see if said plans come to fruition rather than forming an opinion on something that might not happen. If it does then sure, not good. A war crime."

Where you failed to:

1. Realise that you were the person who initially entered into an argument based on plans that Netanyahu was considering having already asked deflecting questions in bad faith;

2. Comprehend the basic legal principal of intent (a qualified and, I'm pretty sure practicing lawyer pointed this particular one out to you too); and

3. Comprehend the basic legal principal of proportionality.


Politicians don't engage in it because they have to be diplomatic. I don't and I've seen enough videos of Israelis wishing death on all Palestinians to make up my mind. The whole conflict in the middle east boils down to race and religion.

You haven't even attempted to explain what extensive bombing of Gaza has achieved or why its justified when it isn't going to destroy Hamas. You haven't acknowledged that Palestinian lives that are being lost for nothing.

1. Is Britain not in Europe?

2. Why are you deflecting from a factual statement. 85% of Israelis in 1948 were European.

Feel free to respond to this one but I'm happy with the points I've made and understanding of the subject matter and I'm signing out so your deflective questions (that I can assure you aren't nearly as effective a tool as you think) can be left out of it.
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I had a response typed out but it is late. I do find it genuinely interesting hearing views that seem so at odds with my own (I wouldn't engage otherwise) so any questions you may feel are deflective are certainly not intended that way.
 
Reiser99 said:
For me it's simple, it should belong to the people who live there. If they choose to be Mauritian, then that's their choice. We shouldn't at the time still have an ex-colonial power deciding who land belongs to. We've had enough wars and issues started because the UK arbitrarily decided who land belongs to.
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John Cena Point GIF by Nickelodeon
 
Israel finally letting humanitarian supplies into Gaza after a long overdue threat to cut military aid from the USA. Israel really needs to be made to understand it's the junior partner in the USA - Israel relationship as they seem to have this arrogant perception that the USA should sing to their tune.

They are still actively trying to starve and displace hundreds of thousands of people. The atrocities of Hamas and Hezbollah should not give them free rein to do what they want to the country's they each reside in.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
Israel finally letting humanitarian supplies into Gaza after a long overdue threat to cut military aid from the USA. Israel really needs to be made to understand it's the junior partner in the USA - Israel relationship as they seem to have this arrogant perception that the USA should sing to their tune.

They are still actively trying to starve and displace hundreds of thousands of people. The atrocities of Hamas and Hezbollah should not give them free rein to do what they want to the country's they each reside in.
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Netanyahu knows the election is going to be tight and he smells weakness in the Whitehouse with Biden on the way out hence his arrogance and single mindedness. I saw a news report saying that many Arab Americans are going to abstain in a few swing states like Arizona out of protest at the Democrats for not being tougher on Netanyahu. This will be music to Neyanyahu's ears and what he would have hoped for with his on-going escalation. He'll be desperate for Trump to win so he can carry on with things potentially getting worse for Palestine and Lebanon.

Protest votes/absentions like this are just plain stupid as if things would have been or are going to get better under Trump. Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if war this tips the balance in Trump's favour. If Harris somehow manages to win then she'll be in a much stronger position to rein in Netanyahu.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
Israel finally letting humanitarian supplies into Gaza after a long overdue threat to cut military aid from the USA. Israel really needs to be made to understand it's the junior partner in the USA - Israel relationship as they seem to have this arrogant perception that the USA should sing to their tune.

They are still actively trying to starve and displace hundreds of thousands of people. The atrocities of Hamas and Hezbollah should not give them free rein to do what they want to the country's they each reside in.
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Netanyahu is very arrogant and thinks that he can get pretty much whatever he wants from us (USA) and mostly has. Well, I think that tune is finally changing.
 
I'm pro Israel and agree with a lot of Israeli's that say Netanyahu is only making things worse. I hope I'm wrong, but I think this conflict will get much worse. :(
 
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Al Bangor said:
I'm pro Israel and agree with a lot of Israeli's that say Netanyahu is only making things worse. I hope I'm wrong, but I think this conflict will get much worse. :(
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Their actions have guaranteed at least another 2 years of fighting imo and could lead to their own self destruction. Playing right into Hamas' hands who have played a blinder to be fair, I don't think even they thought it would go this well for them.
 
McTallshort said:
www.bbc.co.uk

Bowen: US threat to cut Israel military aid is sign of anger at broken promises

The letter criticising Israel over Gaza aid is an attempt to redress the balance between the US and its ally, our international editor says.
www.bbc.co.uk

Even the Americans have had enough now. The fact the Israeli defence minister has used phases like "human animals" is very worrying
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Certainly not good but wasn't that comment made a day or 2 after October 7th? You could probably find lots of politicians use language like that after a terrorist attack.
 
Welsh Exile said:
Certainly not good but wasn't that comment made a day or 2 after October 7th? You could probably find lots of politicians use language like that after a terrorist attack.
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Its just that the language one this case was carried through, Gaza was completely cut off and Israel have obstructed humanity aid at every turn hence why America has finally lost patience with them.
 
Welsh Exile said:
Certainly not good but wasn't that comment made a day or 2 after October 7th? You could probably find lots of politicians use language like that after a terrorist attack.
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Stop making excuses or caveats. Just because someone said it before or others might say it doesn't make it acceptable. I know in general you views are different to mine and others, but you don't need to make excuses for Israel's behaviour every time someone points out that they are in the wrong.

Also yes I know Hamas and others etc...are wrong to. Again, just because others are bad doesn't make you good. Both sides can be in the wrong.
 
Reiser99 said:
Stop making excuses or caveats. Just because someone said it before or others might say it doesn't make it acceptable. I know in general you views are different to mine and others, but you don't need to make excuses for Israel's behaviour every time someone points out that they are in the wrong.

Also yes I know Hamas and others etc...are wrong to. Again, just because others are bad doesn't make you good. Both sides can be in the wrong.
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Think he's trying to justify things to himself more than anyone else
 
Reiser99 said:
Stop making excuses or caveats. Just because someone said it before or others might say it doesn't make it acceptable. I know in general you views are different to mine and others, but you don't need to make excuses for Israel's behaviour every time someone points out that they are in the wrong.

Also yes I know Hamas and others etc...are wrong to. Again, just because others are bad doesn't make you good. Both sides can be in the wrong.
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The first words of my post were "Not good" I was merely adding context to the quote. Context is always good. It's not excusing it at all. That kind of language is clearly unacceptable.

My whole ******* position is both sides are wrong. Clearly there are no "good guys" in this conflict. I'd throw Netenyahu in jail tomorrow if I could, I'd throw the religious zealots in the West Bank (or Judea and Samaria as they cringingly call it) in jail to if I could. I think the cutting off of water and gas was abhorrent back when they did it soon after the attack. I didn't agree with the restriction of aid months ago and I don't agree with it now.

What I push back against is this narrative that Isreal can do no right or whatever they do they are always, and I mean always, in the wrong. The state itself is unjust and shouldn't exist and therefore any harm that comes there way they deserve.

I'm not a Jew and I'm not a Palestinian, and personally even in the Middle East alone there are far far bigger atrocities going on than Isreal/Palestine with hundreds of thousands dying but again, being where I am and human nature, you're somewhat detached from it anyway. I do find, from a sociological point of view, the Isreal/Palestine conflict interesting though.
 

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