A Political Thread pt. 2

[Reiser99]

I think the US is completely split. The Democrats are pro NATO/supporting Ukraine while the Republicans are more interested in supporting Israel and fighting Iran backed groups. The Republicans don't seem interested in dealing with Russian aggression and supporting Ukraine. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Russian money was finding it's way into Trump's campaign coffers. I haven't heard of any Republicans condemning Putin for Navalny's murder.

It's incredible considering how long the cold war went on for that Republicans can get away with not being anti-russian. You think about movies and pop culture, Russia is always portrayed as America's biggest enemy. Of course times change, but I didn't think it would be this soon that not condemning Russian aggression wouldn't hurt you in the polls. It really does show how internally focused America is and that of it's not related to them, they really don't care.

 

[McTallshort]

Tbh I'd be curious about Nato's response in general. I honestly don't think they want or are fully capable of a full scale war with Russia. Only the US is.

I think the Baltic nations, Poland, Finland, Sweden and I would hope the UK would get stuck in but everyone else? Forget Hungary, Turkey I'm unsure about, German, France and Italy absolutely can't be relied on but I would expect Denmark, Norway, Holland and Canada to do something.

 

[General Melchett]

America seems far more concerned about China than it does with Russia. China is a bigger threat economically while Russia just has a load of oil & gas reserves which nobody else can touch anyway.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Turkey I'm unsure about

Turkeys a weird one - on the one hand very hard on Russia, unapologetically shooting down that jet a few years ago and very protective over their waters, but then also seem to hate pretty much every other NATO nation

I'd like to think they'd fight back against Russia because they very much like controlling the entrance to the Black Sea and that's something that Russia, undoubtedly, would want control over - never know if Russia start throwing around oil and gas access/money though

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

We (none US western democracy's) have to accept the fact that the US is no longer a reliable ally. If Russia attacked Estonia with Trump as president could we honestly expect the US to react in a positive way? It's their choice and it's their decision but we must plan to confront Russia and possibly China without that support

Europe has a fair bit to answer for though, for too long Europe has been complacent about defence and relied on the USA to cover any eventuality, making tiny contributions globally to any time military action was called for. Whilst it is commendable to not throw military weight around, the option needs to always be available. If the USA withdraws from giving military support to Europe, our defence industries and armies are not set up to be able to last in a prolonged war, European militaries seem to be largely for show.

A large chunk of US anti-NATO sentiment stems from the idea that European nations aren't pulling their weight and it's not exactly an unfair comment. Granted having a military industrial complex like the USA is overkill but we should have been in a position where we could keep Ukraine supplied with minimal US support and yet here we are begging the USA to do the heavy lifting again. If Europe can't even support a proxy war right on their doorstep, there is no chance in hell they could support a direct war. Russia has revealed this along with how rapidly the western world will give up and let them get their way. Unless I'm mistaken, there also hasn't really been any move to ramp up weapons production in Europe, even as a war is happening right on the border highlighting the severe shortage of weapons available.

Also, much as people hate the USA being world police, imagine the alternative of China and Russia playing world police in their own spheres like the cold war. Also like the cold war, Europe being stuck in the middle, too weak to influence anything. It's like Europe learned absolutely nothing from how enfeebled it was during the cold war and the need to be able to stand on your own 2 feet. Europe needs militaries powerful enough to protect its own back yard. I'm pretty left wing but the idea of gutting your own military and relying on everyone playing nice in the world is naive and has literally never worked in history, pacifist states always fall.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Republicans would absolutely stop funding Ukraine under a "keep the money at home" policy while shuffling money to Israel to end Iran.

Every four years we are gonna have the most important election ever. The fun never ends.

 

[Saintjay]

Europe has a fair bit to answer for though, for too long Europe has been complacent about defence and relied on the USA to cover any eventuality, making tiny contributions globally to any time military action was called for. Whilst it is commendable to not throw military weight around, the option needs to always be available. If the USA withdraws from giving military support to Europe, our defence industries and armies are not set up to be able to last in a prolonged war, European militaries seem to be largely for show.

A large chunk of US anti-NATO sentiment stems from the idea that European nations aren't pulling their weight and it's not exactly an unfair comment. Granted having a military industrial complex like the USA is overkill but we should have been in a position where we could keep Ukraine supplied with minimal US support and yet here we are begging the USA to do the heavy lifting again. If Europe can't even support a proxy war right on their doorstep, there is no chance in hell they could support a direct war. Russia has revealed this along with how rapidly the western world will give up and let them get their way. Unless I'm mistaken, there also hasn't really been any move to ramp up weapons production in Europe, even as a war is happening right on the border highlighting the severe shortage of weapons available.

Also, much as people hate the USA being world police, imagine the alternative of China and Russia playing world police in their own spheres like the cold war. Also like the cold war, Europe being stuck in the middle, too weak to influence anything. It's like Europe learned absolutely nothing from how enfeebled it was during the cold war and the need to be able to stand on your own 2 feet. Europe needs militaries powerful enough to protect its own back yard. I'm pretty left wing but the idea of gutting your own military and relying on everyone playing nice in the world is naive and has literally never worked in history, pacifist states always fall.

The german army up until relatively recent times 90's i think was defence only and very limited on it's deployment. The germans were very reluctant in getting involved in any over seas operations. Hence the big thing about them giving arms to the Ukraine. After WW2 they were also restricted on size and spending. Mainly influenced by French concerns at a powerful German military.

Trump is an arse but he has a point that Europe needs to be contributing it's share to Nato. Only because as has been said you can't rely on the US. Which plays beautifully into Putins hands.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

While I think it's a valid point, trump would be the first to go "we really gonna let the nazis and eye-talians play army again" if a democrat figured out a way for them to boost their nato contribution?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The german army up until relatively recent times 90's i think was defence only and very limited on it's deployment. The germans were very reluctant in getting involved in any over seas operations. Hence the big thing about them giving arms to the Ukraine. After WW2 they were also restricted on size and spending. Mainly influenced by French concerns at a powerful German military.

Trump is an arse but he has a point that Europe needs to be contributing it's share to Nato. Only because as has been said you can't rely on the US. Which plays beautifully into Putins hands.

Yeah Trump is a massive arse but Europes lack of contribution to NATO and the threat of China were both correct, although I strongly suspect that those thoughts were due to Bolton whispering in his ear rather than conclusions he reached himself.

 

[The Seeker]

America seems far more concerned about China than it does with Russia. China is a bigger threat economically while Russia just has a load of oil & gas reserves which nobody else can touch anyway.

As an American, I agree with you. But I and many others here still support Ukraine. Putin is evil and I won't be satisfied until he's gone, one way or another.

 

[The Seeker]

 

[General Melchett]

America is basically the west's alpha male and the other nations should cough up when it comes to defence spending if they want protection from the likes of Russia. That said, America has enjoyed a lot of support from countries like the UK when it comes to their middle east activities (some of which have attracted some well deserved criticism) not to mention China and Taiwan which Europe could in theory wash their hands over given it's not on their doorstep.

Building up the German military is a tricky one. On the one hand they could be a formidable force and act as a real deterrent for Russia but on the other hand if some crazy right wing Trump-esque politician managed to win power then who knows what could happen. The EU is currently an economic/political bloc but maybe in time it will expand to a military one.

 

[Which Tyler]

Bear in mind as well, that the US (and especially Trump) don't want any European nation to have a military-industrial complex. They want us to be spending more... buying from America, and being led by America. The last thing they want is for the European NATO members spending money on R&D, developing their own systems and being in a position to take a more active role in the World Police.

In these terms, what the EU needs is more military integration, an EU army if you like, with an EU-wide military-industrial complex.
France made calls for that, but, like the US, wanted that to mean a French military-industrial complex and French military leadership, with EU money.

Of course, we all know how divisive the thought of an EU army has been here over the years, and it's not less divisive in Spain, or Italy, or anywhere else that isn't hoping/expecting to be the principal recipient of money.

 

[Amiga500]

Tbh I'd be curious about Nato's response in general. I honestly don't think they want or are fully capable of a full scale war with Russia. Only the US is.

Well, with no restrictions on long ranged weaponry and their uses, Putin etc would find themselves hiding in bunkers all day.

 

[McTallshort]

After WW2 they were also restricted on size and spending. Mainly influenced by French concerns at a powerful German military

That was WW1 not 2. The West and East German armies were both large and professional during the cold war and well into the 90s. It's military only fell apart under Merkel who naively thought there was no longer a need for a country to have a military and that Putin was man to be trusted.

 

[General Melchett]

That was WW1 not 2. The West and East German armies were both large and professional during the cold war and well into the 90s. It's military only fell apart under Merkel who naively thought there was no longer a need for a country to have a military and that Putin was man to be trusted.

Putin did her like a kipper and her legacy will suffer because of it. That sort of naïve thinking is on a par with Corbyn.

 

[McTallshort]

Bear in mind as well, that the US (and especially Trump) don't want any European nation to have a military-industrial complex. They want us to be spending more... buying from America, and being led by America. The last thing they want is for the European NATO members spending money on R&D, developing their own systems and being in a position to take a more active role in the World Police.

Britain, Italy, France and Germany all have large Military industrial complexes, only China and the US have bigger. Both BAE, Rolls Royce and Rheinmetall have US contracts as their largest. So that doesn't really stack up.

American military contractors have tripled their profits since Russia's invasion so it's not actually costing the US that much, too be honest any military aid it's given to the Ukrainians is firstly giving them a chance to off load a good portion of its mothballed stock and second generating work for US companies.

 

[McTallshort]

Unless I'm mistaken, there also hasn't really been any move to ramp up weapons production in Europe, even as a war is happening right on the border highlighting the severe shortage of weapons available.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/rheinmetall-open-ammo-factory-ukraine-joint-project-2024-02-17/

 

[The Seeker]

 

[The Seeker]