A Political Thread pt. 2

[ncurd]

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So.... which of the wnakstains is most likely to replace him?

Presumably Raab steps straight in, as deputy PM, then they have a vote for new long term leader?

Not sure how the Tories choose their leader tbh (I think they're birthed from a vat of mud and slime like the Urukhai in LOTR?)

Wonder if this will trigger an early election, cause this is pretty seismic

Edit:

Boris Johnson has agreed to resign, but wants to stay on as PM until new Tory leader elected by autumn
Boris Johnson has agreed to resign, the BBC's Chris Mason reports. He says he wants a new Tory leader to be in place by the party conference. He wants to stay on as PM until then.

Cut out the Raab bit, then
I reckon Rishi might get it - even with his slide recently he's still the cleanest top Tory, and they'll wheel out those photoshops the BBC did of him as Superman, and talk about eat out to help out and furlough etc.

The usual suspects will throw their hat in the ring but doubt anyone will go for Gove/Raab etc.

Though it does depend how they honestly think they'll do in the next GE - maybe they throw in someone like Raab to lose the next GE then vote in Rishi to be leader of the oppo and have a run to the following GE

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

View attachment 14189

With the last 2 Tories back to back being on that list and now they will turn around and expect the British public to call for more of the same. The worst bit is many Brits will see this **** show, see the **** show that came before and STILL think the Tories are worth backing.

 

[General Melchett]

Presumably Raab steps straight in, as deputy PM, then they have a vote for new long term leader?

Not sure how the Tories choose their leader tbh (I think they're birthed from a vat of mud and slime like the Urukhai in LOTR?)

Wonder if this will trigger an early election, cause this is pretty seismic

Edit:

Cut out the Raab bit, then
I reckon Rishi might get it - even with his slide recently he's still the cleanest top Tory, and they'll wheel out those photoshops the BBC did of him as Superman, and talk about eat out to help out and furlough etc.

The usual suspects will throw their hat in the ring but doubt anyone will go for Gove/Raab etc.

Though it does depend how they honestly think they'll do in the next GE - maybe they throw in someone like Raab to lose the next GE then vote in Rishi to be leader of the oppo and have a run to the following GE

Apparently they are currently battling behind the scenes about how long Boris stays. He wants to stay until Autumn but many want him out now. Raab as interim makes sense as he can then re-appoint everyone who was resigned/sacked so the Govt can at least function until Autumn.

 

[Which Tyler]

With the last 2 Tories back to back being on that list and now they will turn around and expect the British public to call for more of the same. The worst bit is many Brits will see this **** show, see the **** show that came before and STILL think the Tories are worth backing.

Seen this posted elsewhere, by an otherwise reasonable poster:

The problem for the country is the left wing lunatics are standing by to take over if Boris clings on to power.

Yup, SKS, that far left wing lunatic.
Unless he meant someone like Sunak, Raab or Hunt

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Seen this posted elsewhere, by an otherwise reasonable poster:


Yup, SKS, that far left wing lunatic.
Unless he meant someone like Sunak, Raab or Hunt

These are the sort of people who could have Johnson literally punch them in the face, kick them in the nuts and then loudly claim how proud they are Corbyn wasn't standing around somewhere nearby, because god knows what the lunatic would do to them. (Corbyn was a poor candidate but it's this ability to constantly be punished and convince themselves that's still the better option).

 

[ncurd]

Hunt is still my bet for next leader, well known and kept an arms length from Johnson's premiership.

 

[McTallshort]

Ben Wallace to be next PM. You heard it here first folks

 

[ncurd]

Baker throwing hat in ring.....*shudder*

 

[Amiga500]

I reckon Rishi might get it

Too many racists* around.

Rishi as PM would be unpalatable to them.

*of particular note in this case is those that vote Tory.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I hold my hand up and admit I got it wrong on Boris. I didn't think enough cabinet ministers would find any sort of spinal chord regardless of pressure, and this was a pretty gentle pretence on which to kick him out compared to the catalogue of horror he has presided over. Whoever mentions school toilets the most during the leadership campaign stands a good chance of winning. We may look back fondly on the Boris / Sunak partnership if the 'tax cut af all costs' brigade take over. I'm not completely without hope that someone more dull and (possibly) more moderat will be selected for a change of pace. Like a Sunak, Javid, Hunt or Wallace.

This is kinda what I'm getting at, who determines at what point it is or isn't viable? A population of 200,000 ish would put the highlands at the same level as the likes of Samoa. Is Samoa not viable as a nation?

Bad things don't happen as a result of a small nation getting the right to self determination, bad things happen when larger nations trample over those smaller nations. Divide and conquer exists for a reason. Nobody would dare take on the USA as all the states are pulling together on foreign policy, whether they like it or not. Now if the USA was split into 50 states, each as sovereign nations in a loose confederation akin to the EU or even looser, do you think nations like China would bat an eyelid at bullying any individual state? With that guaranteed united, single front gone, they can single out smaller nations and hit them hard. This is why I say it's a pipe dream. In an ideal world where everyone played nice then yes, a series of small nations loosely aligned within a confederation of other ideologically similar nations would be fine but it's not an ideal world and big nations will bully smaller nations. The idea of breaking nations down into smaller and smaller self governing constituent parts goes hand in hand with the acceptance that you have little to no defence against aggressive foreign powers short of re-aligning yourself with other bigger powers, often at the cost of self-determination.

For example the EU is heading to more and more centralisation. An independent Scotland could rejoin the EU and in half a century find it is in a federation with even less say over the direction the whole is taking than it did in the UK. If you think the wishes of Scotland are too often ignored when it makes up 8.2% of the population, think how it will be when it makes up 1% of the population and is even more geographically remote.

I don't really agree with the assessment of the EU as centralising all that much (sadly, as I think that would be excellent for a war loving continent). The nation states remain in full control and have a veto over all key matters. I'd argue Scotland would have more influence over EU policy than if would over Westminster Tory majority policy (the experience for Scotland of most of post-WW2). As for what defines a nation, i accept this is completely subjective and I'm not personally a fan of it and have no personal allegiance (although 80-90%+ of folk living in Scoltand do identify as Scottish first and foremost). But there is a reason that the Lib Dems, Tories and Labour parties are all prefixed by 'Scottish' when campaigning in Shetland at UK general elections rather than 'Shetland' or 'UK'. So the comparison to Samoa doesn't really stand.

I also struggle to think of a small European nation that gets bullied (at least within the EU). Even tiny ones like Liechtenstein and Andorra do fine. Yes, a UK government could bully an Ireland (as we have seen) or a Scotland, given the Westminster tendencies. But I'd argue that is anything but a reason for pledging allegiance to a larger neighbour.

In general, I think all your arguments are hypotheticals. Not invalid hypotheticals, but not something that outweighs the perception of many up here that Westminster is politically low grade, not very democratic and completely tone deaf to the requirements of society. And has been so for decades.

All a moot point as there appears to be zero chance of a second referendum with even the head law officer in Scotland (who I've worked with personally in the past, how our careers have diverged) saying they wouldn't sign off on it.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Too many racists* around.

Rishi as PM would be unpalatable to them.

*of particular note in this case is those that vote Tory.

True and what happened recently with his Wife's non-Dom status will just be even more reason not to support him.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't really agree with the assessment of the EU as centralising all that much (sadly, as I think that would be excellent for a war loving continent). The nation states remain in full control and have a veto over all key matters. I'd argue Scotland would have more influence over EU policy than if would over Westminster Tory majority policy (the experience for Scotland of most of post-WW2). As for what defines a nation, i accept this is completely subjective and I'm not personally a fan of it and have no personal allegiance (although 80-90%+ of folk living in Scoltand do identify as Scottish first and foremost). But there is a reason that the Lib Dems, Tories and Labour parties are all prefixed by 'Scottish' when campaigning in Shetland at UK general elections rather than 'Shetland' or 'UK'. So the comparison to Samoa doesn't really stand.

I also struggle to think of a small European nation that gets bullied (at least within the EU). Even tiny ones like Liechtenstein and Andorra do fine. Yes, a UK government could bully an Ireland (as we have seen) or a Scotland, given the Westminster tendencies. But I'd argue that is anything but a reason for pledging allegiance to a larger neighbour.

In general, I think all your arguments are hypotheticals. Not invalid hypotheticals, but not something that outweighs the perception of many up here that Westminster is politically low grade, not very democratic and completely tone deaf to the requirements of society. And has been so for decades.

All a moot point as there appears to be zero chance of a second referendum with even the head law officer in Scotland (who I've worked with personally in the past, how our careers have diverged) saying they wouldn't sign off on it.

Yes it is all hypothetical as it's a hypothetical scenario. The reality of larger nations bullying smaller ones though I'd argue is much less hypothetical. The belief that a smaller nation could avoid such confrontation by not playing an active role on the world stage wouldn't hold up either if the larger power decides to make something an issue and demands everyone follow along, eg see Russia now and China/USA at many points in recent history.

The bullying is not meant as the EU bullying Scotland or necessarily any developed nation, it's more the rising powers with an anti-western agenda such as China and India. China are already attempting to enforce their censorship on the rest of the world.

The issue isn't with self determination as such, it's with the consequences of being a small nation in a globalised world where the majority of countries are not healthy, functioning democracies and many of those that are are sliding into nationalism.

 

[ncurd]

Apparently managed to appoint a full interim cabinet....which is insane but where we are.

 

[Which Tyler]

From what I can tell, BJ's "compromise" of a post-dated resignation for October isn't flying - though we're waiting on some big names speaking out against it.

 

[ncurd]

Here we go......

 

[ncurd]

 

[Which Tyler]

Tories are no strangers to hypocrisy though, especially if it means saving their own skin; and especially the current tranch of tories, explicitly chosen for their self-serving qualities.

 

[McTallshort]

I hold my hand up and admit I got it wrong on Boris. I didn't think enough cabinet ministers would find any sort of spinal chord regardless of pressure, and this was a pretty gentle pretence on which to kick him out compared to the catalogue of horror he has presided over. Whoever mentions school toilets the most during the leadership campaign stands a good chance of winning. We may look back fondly on the Boris / Sunak partnership if the 'tax cut af all costs' brigade take over. I'm not completely without hope that someone more dull and (possibly) more moderat will be selected for a change of pace. Like a Sunak, Javid, Hunt or Wallace.



I don't really agree with the assessment of the EU as centralising all that much (sadly, as I think that would be excellent for a war loving continent). The nation states remain in full control and have a veto over all key matters. I'd argue Scotland would have more influence over EU policy than if would over Westminster Tory majority policy (the experience for Scotland of most of post-WW2). As for what defines a nation, i accept this is completely subjective and I'm not personally a fan of it and have no personal allegiance (although 80-90%+ of folk living in Scoltand do identify as Scottish first and foremost). But there is a reason that the Lib Dems, Tories and Labour parties are all prefixed by 'Scottish' when campaigning in Shetland at UK general elections rather than 'Shetland' or 'UK'. So the comparison to Samoa doesn't really stand.

I also struggle to think of a small European nation that gets bullied (at least within the EU). Even tiny ones like Liechtenstein and Andorra do fine. Yes, a UK government could bully an Ireland (as we have seen) or a Scotland, given the Westminster tendencies. But I'd argue that is anything but a reason for pledging allegiance to a larger neighbour.

In general, I think all your arguments are hypotheticals. Not invalid hypotheticals, but not something that outweighs the perception of many up here that Westminster is politically low grade, not very democratic and completely tone deaf to the requirements of society. And has been so for decades.

All a moot point as there appears to be zero chance of a second referendum with even the head law officer in Scotland (who I've worked with personally in the past, how our careers have diverged) saying they wouldn't sign off on it.

Greece?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

"I want to thank the NHS who in part helped extend my time in office"

Just **** off you ****, **** off to hell. To take the NHS response to Covid as "extending your time in office", you absolute twat.