A Political Thread pt. 2

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The sad reality is that Scotland voted to stay in an unconstitutional, deeply flawed democratic state with a shower of dribbling imbeciles poised to take the reigns of power. We walked into this with our eyes open. Scotland has nobody but themselves to blame for being unable to hold another referendum.

Of course the democratic majority in parliament should try to implement their mandate from the last two elections, but I won't be losing any sleep over it. Devolution provides enough of a security blanket to stop me from being disgusted by the country in which I live.

Nicola Sturgeon unveils case for Scottish independence

Scotland's first minister says her government has an "indisputable mandate" for another referendum.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I opposed Scottish independence for much the same reason I opposed Brexit, I think entertaining the petty nationalist elements is a completely destructive path to follow.

However, the threat of leaving the EU and maybe not being able to rejoin if they left the UK was definitely a significant factor for many Scottish voters, likely enough to swing in favour of remain. That original reasoning is no longer valid. On the flip side, the SNPs huge majority is a result of the crap FPTP system we use. As a proportion of the total vote, those who voted for union parties approximately equal those who voted nationalist. What happens if indy ref 2 ends in remain again? 3? 4? Repeat until you get the "right" result and then that result is final and unchanging?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I opposed Scottish independence for much the same reason I opposed Brexit, I think entertaining the petty nationalist elements is a completely destructive path to follow.

However, the threat of leaving the EU and maybe not being able to rejoin if they left the UK was definitely a significant factor for many Scottish voters, likely enough to swing in favour of remain. That original reasoning is no longer valid. On the flip side, the SNPs huge majority is a result of the crap FPTP system we use. As a proportion of the total vote, those who voted for union parties approximately equal those who voted nationalist. What happens if indy ref 2 ends in remain again? 3? 4? Repeat until you get the "right" result and then that result is final and unchanging?

The Scottish Parliament electoral system has a significant proportional element specifically designed to prevent one party rule. The argument is that being forced out of the EU when every area of Scotland voted to stay in it is a fundamental change that merits a revisit of the referendum. I think that is a valid argument and would struggle to think of a sufficient further argument to justify a third referendum.

The problem with the argument though is the pro-indy parties rarely mention the EU and appear terrified of mentioning the worlds second largest currency that has already successfully been in use on the British Isles for decades. So there is a big disconnect there that should prevent the Yes movement from making any traction.

To be honest, I don't consider myself to have much in the way of a national affiliation, but I voted for independence precisely to try and escape petty nationalism and remain in the transnational EU. Alas, a futile effort! You will struggle to find a single quote from any SNP minister from the past decade bigging up Scotland or denigrating English people The argument is more if it's good enough for lots of comparably sized European countries then why not Scotland?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Was trying to decide between writing wow or cow as a one word post for too long

 

[Reiser99]

Does anyone honestly expect any kind of morality from this current government?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Lord Geidt quits as Boris Johnson's ethics adviser

The resignation comes amid controversy over whether the PM broke the ministerial code.

www.bbc.co.uk

Don't see how anyone can still support Johnson... He has now lost 2 ethics advisors. Really says it all.

 

[Reiser99]

Wasn't it that he had to resign because he had to admit the PM basically was ignoring his advice.

 

[Amiga500]

I think the justification now is that it's harming the people of NI, it should be ignored, even though it was completely foreseeable and forewarned.

It's similar to the judge on the Rwandan deportation case saying that the deportations were in the public interest.

For me those are very sketchy legal arguments, as public interest is not quantifiable and the NI protocol not working could have been avoided.

Sorry, I need to make something crystal, crystal clear here.

The protocol is not harming the people of NI.

There are some niche areas where it has some limited effects to certain companies. But there are no areas where every supplier is affected.

Case in point would be M&S. M&S make their sausages in England, and have difficulty getting the paperwork sorted to get it over to NI.
But Tesco, Asda, Lidl, Sainsburys, Henderson Group etc all source their pork from NI or the ROI already - and did so pre-Brexit.

So - M&S are gurning because they cannot stock up Northumberland sausages. Meanwhile, everyone can actually get them.


But, lets look at the benefits. 2 days ago Wrightbus signed a near £500m deal to sell busses to the ROI. The amount of paperwork reduction due to the protocol cannot be understated. Without the protocol, the additional overhead would probably would have made a Wrightbus offer uncompetitive.

[As an aside, for the Irish, particularly the jackeens in our midst- the MD of Wrightbus, Neil Collins, is the Neil Collins Charlie Redmond couldn't beat with the penalty in '94.]

 

[Amiga500]

I opposed Scottish independence for much the same reason I opposed Brexit, I think entertaining the petty nationalist elements is a completely destructive path to follow.

Surely the right to self-determination is a, if not the, fundamental pillar of any democracy?

[just don't ask too many "democratic" governments, they tend to be quite hypocritical of that little bit]

 

[Amiga500]

South Africans are welcome to fly Ryanair - as long as they speak Afrikaans

I wonder where Ireland got their idea from of what most South Africans are like?

We keep trying to excommunicate Michael O'Leary, but like a bad-smell he still lingers!!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Surely the right to self-determination is a, if not the, fundamental pillar of any democracy?

[just don't ask too many "democratic" governments, they tend to be quite hypocritical of that little bit]

I never said the Scots didn't have the right to independence, I just feel that the desire to split Europe up into smaller states will become self defeating and those small states will find they either end up in a big nation (like the EU will probably become) or they get trampled over by big nations, either way losing a lot of their self determination. I think the idea of the plucky little state being allowed to push on in the world without being bullied by bigger powers is a pipe dream and I think the old blaming those who are outside the group that want independence for all their ills is a toxic and destructive attitude.

As for self determination, what if the Scottish highlands wanted independence from the lowlands? What if Northern Ireland wants to break out as an independent nation with no interest in joining the Republic? What if Cornwall wanted independence? Every county? Every city? Maybe along political lines and in the USA for example the country split in 2 between red and blue states?

I think the way forward is sufficient representation within larger blocks of like-minded nations, not ever finer levels of fragmentation.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Trump thought he would get away with it. The US Capitol attack hearings prove that’s not true | Emma Brockes

High drama, betrayal, catharsis: the televised select committee investigation makes for riveting viewing, says Guardian columnist Emma Brockes

www.theguardian.com

Crazy that a tv style documentary has to be produced to appeal and persuade Americans that Trump instigated the January 6th insurrection.

Is this years of being fed on a diet of tv/movies the reason why they have to resort to this?

Will be interesting if it has any effect on those Republican supporters. Probably not, with Fox News not airing these committee hearings. Or if the voting out of Tom Rice reconfirms they divide in America.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just begging Labour not to miss an open goal, just once

 

[Amiga500]

I think the way forward is sufficient representation within larger blocks of like-minded nations, not ever finer levels of fragmentation.

Possibly, indeed probably.

But we'll likely have to step through the smaller nation stage first before getting there... and expect cyclic repeats as people forget their history and vote to secede, realised over the next decade or two the benefits they miss out on, then join up again.

Kinda like Brexit. In 15 years time, we'll almost certainly be back inside the tent.


[Or, of course, we recognise the lies and bullsht that "democracy" actually is and look for something better.]

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Just begging Labour not to miss an open goal, just once

Labour's constant refusal to be nailed down on so many things, even things that are clearly wrong, is so frustrating. It really feeds the captain hindsight / spineless image they present. Just get a stance and bloody well stick to it.

 

[Reiser99]

Sorry, I need to make something crystal, crystal clear here.

The protocol is not harming the people of NI.

There are some niche areas where it has some limited effects to certain companies. But there are no areas where every supplier is affected.

Case in point would be M&S. M&S make their sausages in England, and have difficulty getting the paperwork sorted to get it over to NI.
But Tesco, Asda, Lidl, Sainsburys, Henderson Group etc all source their pork from NI or the ROI already - and did so pre-Brexit.

So - M&S are gurning because they cannot stock up Northumberland sausages. Meanwhile, everyone can actually get them.


But, lets look at the benefits. 2 days ago Wrightbus signed a near £500m deal to sell busses to the ROI. The amount of paperwork reduction due to the protocol cannot be understated. Without the protocol, the additional overhead would probably would have made a Wrightbus offer uncompetitive.

[As an aside, for the Irish, particularly the jackeens in our midst- the MD of Wrightbus, Neil Collins, is the Neil Collins Charlie Redmond couldn't beat with the penalty in '94.]

Never said it was, just that's the argument the government are using.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Australian man uses forklift to stop would-be thief stealing his car

Brendan Mills used the forklift to suspend the car - and the would-be thief - until police arrived.

www.bbc.co.uk

Still some humour to be found in the world.

 

[Smurfy]

Sorry, I need to make something crystal, crystal clear here.

The protocol is not harming the people of NI.

There are some niche areas where it has some limited effects to certain companies. But there are no areas where every supplier is affected.

Case in point would be M&S. M&S make their sausages in England, and have difficulty getting the paperwork sorted to get it over to NI.
But Tesco, Asda, Lidl, Sainsburys, Henderson Group etc all source their pork from NI or the ROI already - and did so pre-Brexit.

So - M&S are gurning because they cannot stock up Northumberland sausages. Meanwhile, everyone can actually get them.


But, lets look at the benefits. 2 days ago Wrightbus signed a near £500m deal to sell busses to the ROI. The amount of paperwork reduction due to the protocol cannot be understated. Without the protocol, the additional overhead would probably would have made a Wrightbus offer uncompetitive.

[As an aside, for the Irish, particularly the jackeens in our midst- the MD of Wrightbus, Neil Collins, is the Neil Collins Charlie Redmond couldn't beat with the penalty in '94.]

It's the success of the arrangement that frightens the DUP and Brexiteers most. The irony of their position is that the desire for a united Ireland in the South is receding more each year as the realisation of the economic and societal cost of a united Ireland becomes clearer. Throw in the fact that most young people who make up a large part of the voters really have no emotional attachment to the concept and I would say that a vote for reunification in the South would struggle to pass at the moment, especially as the enormous economic consequences become apparent.

 

[ncurd]

Just begging Labour not to miss an open goal, just once

Its not really an open goal polling suggest the Rwanda policy is pretty popular among voters he needs to court.

Rather he showed leadership though.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It's the success of the arrangement that frightens the DUP and Brexiteers most. The irony of their position is that the desire for a united Ireland in the South is receding more each year as the realisation of the economic and societal cost of a united Ireland becomes clearer. Throw in the fact that most young people who make up a large part of the voters really have no emotional attachment to the concept and I would say that a vote for reunification in the South would struggle to pass at the moment, especially as the enormous economic consequences become apparent.

I don't think that's true, every university apart from Trinity recently voted to take a stance as pro unification and there's been a strong shift left in politics (for better or worse) thar goes hand in hand with unification.

The south isn't a barrier to unification right now.