A Political Thread pt. 2

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Interesting and probably unsurprising

 

[Reiser99]

Interesting and probably unsurprising

Yep, I'm sure the guys who defaced the Rashford mural were chucking balloons filled with paint from Holland. Let's move on, nothing to see here. Britain clearly isn't racist and actually it's just foreigners trying to malign us!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Interesting and probably unsurprising

A few things:
- There doesn't appear to be such thing as the centre for identifying digital hate.
- VPNs are a thing
- This story is unsourced and I can't find anything to corroborate it
- The stuff on the street was very real.

There may be truth in it but I have seen nothing outside that tweet to support it.

 

[ncurd]

Edit: Whilst Harwood is usually full of BS he does say it was Newsnight which are not.

Not that it's matters on twitter it was more than 59 accounts and stuff definitely happened physically in the UK.

 

[ncurd]

Even if it was said on Newsnight (and I have no reason to doubt it) it does appear Harwood is focusing on a very small part of their reporting. This is what they shared on twitter.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I've never heard of this guy before so just googled him and seen that he used to work for Guido Fawkes. So not exactly a trustworthy source imo.

 

[ncurd]

I've never heard of this guy before so just googled him and seen that he used to work for Guido Fawkes. So not exactly a trustworthy source imo.

Yeah its a bit like trusting on the left someone who regularly writes for The Canary. If they stumble onto actual journalism its a happy mistake.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yeah its a bit like trusting on the left someone who regularly writes for The Canary. If they stumble onto actual journalism its a happy mistake.

I'm always suspicious when a supposed journalist posts something with no link or citation especially when you reference a mainstream news show like Newsnight. I mean, how hard can it be to post a little link? You can still be sneaky and be selective in what bit you show but to show nothing? Alarm bells should be ringing.

Also, while only researching for 10mins, there does appear to be a Center for countering digital hate but I can't see them mentioning anything about what has been talked about by this Harwood guy. Not to say he's completely making it up but at the very least it sounds like he's being a bit disingenuous.

 

[Reiser99]

I'm always suspicious when a supposed journalist posts something with no link or citation especially when you reference a mainstream news show like Newsnight. I mean, how hard can it be to post a little link? You can still be sneaky and be selective in what bit you show but to show nothing? Alarm bells should be ringing.

Also, while only researching for 10mins, there does appear to be a Center for countering digital hate but I can't see them mentioning anything about what has been talked about by this Harwood guy. Not to say he's completely making it up but at the very least it sounds like he's being a bit disingenuous.

Issue is, is that it will work. Those who were looking for an excuse to say Britain isn't racist and it's only a minority of fans and therefore not a big issue will use this to justify their view. They will completely ignore the fact the other evidence. The ridiculous thing is that, even if it is true, is that 5 accounts are 5 too many. Rather than saying let's focus on ending racism (even if it is a challenge and unlikely to ever be completely eliminated) they would be happy to ignore racism online as long as for them it's not widespread and only in the minority completely ignoring the victims and how they feel.

"Yeah racism is terrible, but look it's only a few British people doing it, so only a few people getting hurt. It's not a problem though."

This is the view that comes with white privilege. Because these people are not subject to racist abuse themselves, don't have to suffer and experience any negative consequences or treatment based on they way they look and don't see others suffer on a regular basis, they believe the issue is gone. It's not. Only real difference were people were becoming less openly racist as they would be condemned. Online anonymity has allowed racists to openly abuse again without fear of consequences. Yet as long as people like Tom Harwood and the government as well as others in power can convince themselves that it's only the actions of a few and not a big issue, it will continue to happen.

Another point I feel is that a lot of the discussion is around Twitter/Instagram and other online platforms and whether they do enough. Yes of course they can and they must, but reality is that these posts come from real people and those people are a reflection of their society. People didn't post of twitter and their posts were sent to Rashford's mural without them doing anything physically. Someone had to physically go there and deface it. That is nothing to do with social media companies policies. I can see the government trying to shift the debate to focus on the responsibilities of social media companies, rather than taking responsibilities for governing a country where the culture allows these people to do this in the first place.

 

[General Melchett]

The big tech companies are extremely profitable and always find ways of paying as little taxes as possible. I am always astounded at how they can access our data, track things we do, say and look for online. Some of my friends truly believe that smartphones are now essentially listening and tracking devices. My Youtube homepage is full of suggested videos that leave me thinking HTF did they know I was looking for that or even thinking about that. Governments need to lean on them more to step up their efforts to moderate content, verify accounts and have proper escalation routes to the relevant law enforcement authorities who can track down the offenders.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The big tech companies are extremely profitable and always find ways of paying as little taxes as possible. I am always astounded at how they can access our data, track things we do, say and look for online. My Youtube homepage is full of suggested videos that leave me thinking HTF did they know I was looking for that or even thinking about that. Governments need to lean on them more to step up their efforts to moderate content, verify accounts and have proper escalation routes to the relevant law enforcement authorities who can track down the offenders.

This is why it always makes me laugh when you hear anti vaxxers go on about microchips in vaccines. They (big businesss/government) already have most of the info they need about you on your phone and various algorithms online.

 

[ncurd]

James O'Brien went on one of his rants yesterday about how people decided they knew better about why players were taking the knee.



And I think part of the reason people want to believe the complete nonsense Marxism narrative despite repeatedly being told no its not that and why I don't think any gesture will work is they don't want to confront their own opinions about things and issues systemic in society. Its a lot easier to pretend they don't exist and they aren't really protesting against those things but another so they'll believe the bullshirt rather than the actual people clearly articulating what they are protesting about.

 

[ncurd]

Its been a fascinating month, you have people trying to condone the booing or dismiss the booing as acceptable. The right-wing media and supporters were clearly getting ready to set up a narrative of how the team were more interested in social justice issues and should be concentrating on the pitch as their reason for failure. In the past its been things like blaming the WAGS.

Then the team did something nobody expected we actually did well to the point we were literal inches away from winning the whole thing, the only way we could of got closer is if one save or one goal would of meant we won it in the shootout.

It blows that narrative out of the water you can't say the team didn't do well, you can have criticisms sure but you can't really say they underperformed.

Then the actual racism and violence happens because what they were protesting was real and when PoC fail they always get on top of the normal unacceptable abuse, racially aggravated/charged abuse.

So it dawns on people maybe the knee stuff had a point and they have condemn this **** because its very real and tangible problem is they become hypocrites because of their early actions.

My only hope is the wave of positivity that flowed through on Monday and Tuesday in the wake of it was an eye opening moment for many and does turn the tide against the open and casual racism that has rotted the nation this past decade. It could be a watershed moment in our history, it might not be but if it is its a far greater legacy for these lads than lifting a trophy ever would be.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

There are a few different camps on the criticism here -

1. Those that are uncomfortable with the kneeling because of the BLM connection and would be fine with something else
2. Those that believe that gesture politics is largely meaningless and ineffective to solve the problem of racism and would like actual action instead (would be interesting to see if kneeling has had any effect on the abuse players have recieved - if not, then it suggests this argument has merit)
3. Those that legitimately don't want sport and politics intermingled (as if this has never been the case)
4. Actual racists


There are of course some overlap between those camps, but I think broadly most people fall into one of them, with some more niche outliers.

As I mentioned in my second point, it would be interesting to see some actual data on the amount of abuse players have faced on social media - I would hazard a guess that it is about the same and if anything has gone up (though the high profile event makes something like that hard to study). Regardless, I would be very surprised if the kneeling made any discernable difference. If the FA, even PRL and other sporting bodies now started replacing the kneeling with actual coordinated action to weed out both those supporters and coaches, players etc who were racist or racially abusing players and made that a full on, public campaign instead of the kneeling, that then brings in group 1 and 2 I have listed above and you are left with a very slim group of peope opposing it, and more clear reasons why they are. Until then, Tyrone Mings, Aaron Morris and others will continue to burn bridges and wrongly conflate being against kneeling and being anti anti racist.

Both sides of this debate over how best to deal with racism and the abuse players recieve specifically seem to be getting more and more stubborn as they are relentelessly attacked by the other side - Mings and Patel have both exacerbated that in their own way. It's not exactly conducive to actual progresss, which clearly hasnt been achieved

 

[ncurd]

'gesture politics' is within itself is meaningless phrase but one I'd expect from you.

All protests by their very nature are gestures and have little direct tangible results however are we now going to say MLK or Ghandi weren't hugely effective in raising issues and changing the course of narrative. ah instead of leading marches and giving speeches about their plights they should of been working behind the scenes to create real change which BTW is actually going on the taking the knee is part of that.

Marcus Rashford didn't get the government to U-Turn on kids food twice because he worked behind the scenes he used his voice to raise the problem and explain his own story to create a backlash large enough the government couldn't ignore it. Ah but that's just a gesture he should of been quietly ignored behind the scenes rather than create a fuss.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

1. Those that are uncomfortable with the kneeling because of the BLM connection and would be fine with something else

This is such a weird one, to me

It's people projecting their own ignorance onto the situation
"Stop kneeling you marxist commie!"
"No, I'm doing it as a symbol of anti-racism"
"No you're a marxist! Stop lying!"

I'm not sure being a multi millionaire pro-footballer really goes hand in hand with Marxism tbh

The amount of people claiming kneeling is marxist far outweighs the number of people kneeling who hold marxist ideals

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

'gesture politics' is within itself is meaningless phrase but one I'd expect from you.

All protests by their very nature are gestures and have little direct tangible results however are we now going to say MLK or Ghandi weren't hugely effective in raising issues and changing the course of narrative. ah instead of leading marches and giving speeches about their plights they should of been working behind the scenes to create real change which BTW is actually going on the taking the knee is part of that.

Marcus Rashford didn't get the government to U-Turn on kids food twice because he worked behind the scenes he used his voice to raise the problem and explain his own story to create a backlash large enough the government couldn't ignore it. Ah but that's just a gesture he should of been quietly ignored behind the scenes rather than create a fuss.

The difference is MLK, Ghandi and even Rashford all campaigned for a substantive change in the law - ending racism is not a substantive thing you can do - thus, gesture politics.

Regardless, thoughts on the broader point I was making would be appreciated

 

[ncurd]

We can go further

Yesteday was Blue for Bob day at the Cricket, come wear blue at the match to raise awareness for porstate cancer and donate to this number. Ah the blue is just a gesture completely useless just please donate to this number.

Race for Life, nobody actually needs to run a distance to raise money for charity so its just a gesture lets just give it to them anyway, donations certianly won't plummet from the event being cancelled.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

We can go further

Yesteday was Blue for Bob day at the Cricket, come wear blue at the match to raise awareness for porstate cancer and donate to this number. Ah the blue is just a gesture completely useless just please donate to this number.

Race for Life, nobody actually needs to run a distance to raise money for charity so its just a gesture lets just give it to them anyway, donations certianly won't plummet from the event being cancelled.

Both have concrete goals again...

 

[ncurd]

Both have concrete goals again...

Ah but the footballers don't because....you realise they aren't just taking the knee over this, right? Never have done.