[2024 Six Nations] Ireland v Wales - 14:15, Lansdowne Road

[dirty harry]

The difference with Adams and Tompkins is that 1. They have more credit in the bank in my opinion (obviously not in Gatlands) and 2. We don't have far superior players in their position on the bench like we do with Rowlands. Honestly this is a joke.

I mean, Rowlands is superior to both Beard and Jenkins to be fair. I'd have gone with Beard and Rowlands. I get your frustration with Beard, but we dont breed monster men who can scrummage and disrupt a maul like he can.

I think it's easy to underestimate those 2 aspects, especially scrummaging locks. The best TH in the world would struggle with someone as weak as Rory Thornton behind him.

I'd also argue Adam's needs dropping desperately, he looks injured, slow and frustrated. Adam's being angry is great when hes at full tilt, but currently he is making stupid decisions through frustration. I'd have gone with Grady, and made Adam's earn his place.

Likewise Tompkins is a luxury player, as good as he is ball in hand, hes so wild and panicky he negatively effects all around him, especially defensively. North is a very good 13 defender, and he is at sea at times when Tompkins tries to cover 4 positions at once. I see Tompkins as an impact utility back. I'd much rather see Watkins, or Johnny Williams at 12. Come to think of it Keiran William's.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I mean, Rowlands is superior to both Beard and Jenkins to be fair. I'd have gone with Beard and Rowlands. I get your frustration with Beard, but we dont breed monster men who can scrummage and disrupt a maul like he can.

I think it's easy to underestimate those 2 aspects, especially scrummaging locks. The best TH in the world would struggle with someone as weak as Rory Thornton behind him.

I'd also argue Adam's needs dropping desperately, he looks injured, slow and frustrated. Adam's being angry is great when hes at full tilt, but currently he is making stupid decisions through frustration. I'd have gone with Grady, and made Adam's earn his place.

Likewise Tompkins is a luxury player, as good as he is ball in hand, hes so wild and panicky he negatively effects all around him, especially defensively. North is a very good 13 defender, and he is at sea at times when Tompkins tries to cover 4 positions at once. I see Tompkins as an impact utility back. I'd much rather see Watkins, or Johnny Williams at 12. Come to think of it Keiran William's.

I agree Adams form is not good and I wouldn't lose any sleep if he was dropped but it would be a risk playing a Grady or someone else on the wing. I can't agree with Watkins being a better option than Tompkins nor Johnny Williams (who I like but form is poor) I'm a fan of Kieran Williams and would rather he was in the squad over Watkin but even then with the WC Tompkins had I can understand his inclusion.

I can't agree with the beard chat to be honest. Hes the weakest big lump I've seen. This is easy to see in the loose and, although harder to quantify in the tight, I don't see us having a really dominate scrum and as I've already pointed out our line out is no great shakes either.

Rowlands is just a vastly superior player all round. I think you're bonkers to even consider dropping a young talent like Jenkins who's already better than Beard let alone in 4 years time (if we keep developing him) when he could potentially be a top 5 international lock.

I honestly think it's crazy you can dig out Lloyd who's learning his trade in a new position and has shown promise but yet say you'd play our weakest link in the pack in Adam Beard.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The thing that is really annoying is that I know how this goes. Gatland has decided Costelow is his number 1 and there is nothing Lloyd can do now to usurp him. He's going to have to hope Costelow gets injured coz he won't be getting any meaningful minutes ahead of him. Doubly annoying that he signed for Scarlets where his development is going to suffer. I'd be sacking my agent if I was Lloyd but don't know why he joined, maybe it was his only option but he should've gone to Dragons or Ospreys.

 

[Welsh Exile]

FML

Why is Will Rowlands still on the bench?
Howley: "I think Warren and Jonathan can answer that in more detail than I can. Daf Jenkins is some player, he's a young player to lead this group. He's been outstanding. Adam Beard gives that experience. Rugby is a 23-man game, and we'll need Will. We'll need all 23. The number of changes that make impact off the bench.

 

[dullonien]

I agree Adams form is not good and I wouldn't lose any sleep if he was dropped but it would be a risk playing a Grady or someone else on the wing. I can't agree with Watkins being a better option than Tompkins nor Johnny Williams (who I like but form is poor) I'm a fan of Kieran Williams and would rather he was in the squad over Watkin but even then with the WC Tompkins had I can understand his inclusion.

I can't agree with the beard chat to be honest. Hes the weakest big lump I've seen. This is easy to see in the loose and, although harder to quantify in the tight, I don't see us having a really dominate scrum and as I've already pointed out our line out is no great shakes either.

Rowlands is just a vastly superior player all round. I think you're bonkers to even consider dropping a young talent like Jenkins who's already better than Beard let alone in 4 years time (if we keep developing him) when he could potentially be a top 5 international lock.

I honestly think it's crazy you can dig out Lloyd who's learning his trade in a new position and has shown promise but yet say you'd play our weakest link in the pack in Adam Beard.

100% agree on Beard. Just because he's tall and over 18st. he really doesn't appear to have much power. I haven't noticed any obvious correlation between Beard not playing and scrum issues, and it's not like Rowlands is small either!

His maul defense is strong, I can't argue againat that one, but it just isn't ******* enough!

We are severely lacking ball carriers and lock is a position where big men can really help with that. Beard is a pathetic ball carrier, genuinely terrible. I'd back someone like Rio Dier to make more meters in traffic than him because he actually shows some aggression in contact, not just flop to the ground the second someone touches him!

It's a real bloody shame, because he has all the attributes to be a top player. His fitness levels are excellent and he has good hands for a lock. Someone just needs to get some dog in him somehow. Some upper body gym sessions wouldn't go amiss either, because somehow he looks pretty weedy in his chest/arms.

 

[dirty harry]

The thing that is really annoying is that I know how this goes. Gatland has decided Costelow is his number 1 and there is nothing Lloyd can do now to usurp him. He's going to have to hope Costelow gets injured coz he won't be getting any meaningful minutes ahead of him. Doubly annoying that he signed for Scarlets where his development is going to suffer. I'd be sacking my agent if I was Lloyd but don't know why he joined, maybe it was his only option but he should've gone to Dragons or Ospreys.

I mean Gats has to nail his pin to a flag, of the 3 options Costelow is as good a choice as any.

Like you said, Lloyd is learning, he needs 30 games at club level minimum before even being looked at. Even then, I just cant fathom how a pro player can kick out of hand so poorly. Even with the womens game pro players can make 40 yards. That's a massive disadvantage, it's like having a 5 foot lock, or a prop with a hunch.

I also agree that Lloyd moving to Scarlet was moronic all round, especially as Costelow was already getting int caps. He couldnt have gone to the ospreys with their prospects, but Cardiff or the Dragons would've made much more sense.

I get it's hard to judge Beard, especially scrummaging wise, but the scrum hasnt gone so bad considering the props all have a few caps each, the lineout has also been fine with Dee on the park. Those are pretty big factors.

At some point you have to trust that Beards training and strength numbers are just too good to ignore. Also it's tough to judge tight 5s carrying without knowing the gameplan, set up and bust Carrie's are very different.

Again I'm not saying Beard deserves to start, he probably doesnt on current form, but hes hardly the weakness your making him out. I'm yet to see a performance by Jenkins that's more than meh, it seems our tight 5 is just underpowered currently.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I mean Gats has to nail his pin to a flag, of the 3 options Costelow is as good a choice as any.

Like you said, Lloyd is learning, he needs 30 games at club level minimum before even being looked at. Even then, I just cant fathom how a pro player can kick out of hand so poorly. Even with the womens game pro players can make 40 yards. That's a massive disadvantage, it's like having a 5 foot lock, or a prop with a hunch.

I also agree that Lloyd moving to Scarlet was moronic all round, especially as Costelow was already getting int caps. He couldnt have gone to the ospreys with their prospects, but Cardiff or the Dragons would've made much more sense.

I get it's hard to judge Beard, especially scrummaging wise, but the scrum hasnt gone so bad considering the props all have a few caps each, the lineout has also been fine with Dee on the park. Those are pretty big factors.

At some point you have to trust that Beards training and strength numbers are just too good to ignore. Also it's tough to judge tight 5s carrying without knowing the gameplan, set up and bust Carrie's are very different.

Again I'm not saying Beard deserves to start, he probably doesnt on current form, but hes hardly the weakness your making him out. I'm yet to see a performance by Jenkins that's more than meh, it seems our tight 5 is just underpowered currently.

I've never enjoyed posts I've disagreed with as much as I have this one. Can't say I agree with most of that but I can understand the thinking, just.

You're not Gatland are you.

 

[dirty harry]

FML

Why is Will Rowlands still on the bench?
Howley: "I think Warren and Jonathan can answer that in more detail than I can. Daf Jenkins is some player, he's a young player to lead this group. He's been outstanding. Adam Beard gives that experience. Rugby is a 23-man game, and we'll need Will. We'll need all 23. The number of changes that make impact off the bench.

I mean, what can you expect from Howley lol

I hope Beard picks up, because the last thing we need is to get another Alex Cuthbert situation, in which the crowd boo him and he literally starts giving games away, being forced to play to I.rpove his form with his head down

 

[dirty harry]

I've never enjoyed posts I've disagreed with as much as I have this one. Can't say I agree with most of that but I can understand the thinking, just.

You're not Gatland are you.

This is what I love about rugby lol, you can sound like a genius in one comment, and then a mug in the next when your prediction is 100% wrong.

I remember being in Rome last time out, as a group of welshmen we were nervous, I had predicted Italy would win, and a few mins in Webb played that ridiculous box in Italys half, I was mid rant about wasting an attacking platform before the stupid bounce, and late chase from Dyer proved perfect for a try, and as I stopped mid rant I proclaimed very loudly to the Welsh and Italins around me...

'But what the **** do I know...'

 

[Welsh Exile]

I mean, what can you expect from Howley lol

I hope Beard picks up, because the last thing we need is to get another Alex Cuthbert situation, in which the crowd boo him and he literally starts giving games away, being forced to play to I.rpove his form with his head down

I think you're a ******* idiot if you boo your own player and/or send them **** on social media. I can tolerate a heavy sigh as I do that every time Beard touches the ball but booing your own player? Not for me. Counter productive to say the least. Goes without saying I hope Beard smashes it and proves me wrong, and, in the spirit of fairness, he did actually have an good game (by his low standards) against England I'll give him that.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Irish contributions have become very boring in the lead up to a game. We desperately need Sam Prendergast to take the number one spot at Leinster so the **** flinging between Munster and Leinster can begin.

As bad as Wales have been I think they have a small chance with Keenan out, he is really plugging a gap at the best of times and currently his two emergency back ups are also out. Kick the leather off the ball and hope Frawley makes mistakes ought to be the game plan. But equally I think we'll just drop Lowe back there with him and challenge Wales to get around out defence and then convert when they do. If Ringrose is back, which he should be, that challenge gets far more difficult also.

Crowley and JGPs first outing together at home also, could be fireworks. JGP has been outstanding since being given more of a role in running the game for us.

 

[Reiser99]

I'm still amused that Irish fans are continuing to discuss selections as if they matter. Could probably stick an u12's side out and still win the tournament at this point.

 

[dirty harry]

Irish contributions have become very boring in the lead up to a game. We desperately need Sam Prendergast to take the number one spot at Leinster so the **** flinging between Munster and Leinster can begin.

As bad as Wales have been I think they have a small chance with Keenan out, he is really plugging a gap at the best of times and currently his two emergency back ups are also out. Kick the leather off the ball and hope Frawley makes mistakes ought to be the game plan. But equally I think we'll just drop Lowe back there with him and challenge Wales to get around out defence and then convert when they do. If Ringrose is back, which he should be, that challenge gets far more difficult also.

Crowley and JGPs first outing together at home also, could be fireworks. JGP has been outstanding since being given more of a role in running the game for us.

I mean come on, JGP hasnt been unleashed lol, hes just living with an arm chair ride behind an incredible pack currently.

 

[dirty harry]

I think you're a ******* idiot if you boo your own player and/or send them **** on social media. I can tolerate a heavy sigh as I do that every time Beard touches the ball but booing your own player? Not for me. Counter productive to say the least. Goes without saying I hope Beard smashes it and proves me wrong, and, in the spirit of fairness, he did actually have an good game (by his low standards) against England I'll give him that.

See now I quite like crowd expression.

I think rugby has become so sanitised in recent years, it's a gladiatorial sport, we need to lean into that, and crowd involvement will be key to actually progressing rugby instead of it progressing like it is.

Look at MMA, global popularity has overtaken rugby in recent years, it's a no nonsense, non apologetic sport that fans have embraced in their millions. rugby is dying because most of the time its mentioned in the context of naughty words, naughty attitudes, too much alcohol, and the saddest documentary known to man.

Rugby spends more time apologising than it does promoting the sport.

With regards to booing, boo away. I personally dont and am not interested in it, but I hate northern rugby's attitude to those who do. Kids enjoy the pantomime, fans enjoy the interaction, too many Welsh stadiums are like libraries, lack of fans, lack of passion, lack of noise. I love going to the darts, MMA, boxing, NFL etc, they are great at fan engagement, I wish rugby could be more inclusive lol

 

[Welsh Exile]

See now I quite like crowd expression.

I think rugby has become so sanitised in recent years, it's a gladiatorial sport, we need to lean into that, and crowd involvement will be key to actually progressing rugby instead of it progressing like it is.

Look at MMA, global popularity has overtaken rugby in recent years, it's a no nonsense, non apologetic sport that fans have embraced in their millions. rugby is dying because most of the time its mentioned in the context of naughty words, naughty attitudes, too much alcohol, and the saddest documentary known to man.

Rugby spends more time apologising than it does promoting the sport.

With regards to booing, boo away. I personally dont and am not interested in it, but I hate northern rugby's attitude to those who do. Kids enjoy the pantomime, fans enjoy the interaction, too many Welsh stadiums are like libraries, lack of fans, lack of passion, lack of noise. I love going to the darts, MMA, boxing, NFL etc, they are great at fan engagement, I wish rugby could be more inclusive lol

I agree with all of this except I draw the line at booing your own players. I'm a big fan of booing everyone else and I've personally never liked the "respect the kicker" BS. Respect your kicker but don't ask me to respect opposition kickers.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I mean come on, JGP hasnt been unleashed lol, hes just living with an arm chair ride behind an incredible pack currently.

Yeah but he also saved Crowley from himself a few times in the opening 30 v France. After Crowley's big gaff kicking the ball dead, Fetish just didn't give him the ball for 10 minutes, scored a try and then Crowley's next touches we're putting Byrne through.

He's not the best 9 in the game but is a highly effective international one unless asked to slowly manage and box kick his way through one. Neither team he plays in wants that.

 

[Half Pint]

I'm thinking this one will be a something-to-zero.
So, question : how many points do you think Wales will score?

 

[Smurfy]

Yeah but he also saved Crowley from himself a few times in the opening 30 v France. After Crowley's big gaff kicking the ball dead, Fetish just didn't give him the ball for 10 minutes, scored a try and then Crowley's next touches we're putting Byrne through.

He's not the best 9 in the game but is a highly effective international one unless asked to slowly manage and box kick his way through one. Neither team he plays in wants that.

I actually think he might be the best 9 behind Dupont in the game, and as a Munster fan it hurts me so badly to have to admit it. While he does get a relatively comfortable ride behind the current pack his contribution goes way beyond moving the ball away from contact, with his defensive and covering game in particular world class. For a guy who struggled to get past McGrath at Leinster not too long ago his all round game is now exceptional.

On the subject of scrumhalves, it was interesting rewatching Casey's performance from the comfort of my sofa last night. Many, myself included, were highly critical of his kicking but I was actually very surprised at just how little he kicked, and how good his kicking was after that first one that went out out on the full. I don't think he kicked more than 6 or 7 times in the whole game and generally they were quite good, with a couple of excellent ones - the touch finder into the Italian around 38 minutes, the chip over the top from the 22 that led to Keenan gathering. I think a lot of fans views were clouded by that first kick, but to be honest I'm not sure it is justified. His passing was superb all day, with every pass, off either side, out in front of the receiver, and really quick and long. He doesn't at this stage bring the same variety or decision making around the contact area as JGP, but then again neither did JGP at the same stage of his international career.

 

[dirty harry]

Yeah but he also saved Crowley from himself a few times in the opening 30 v France. After Crowley's big gaff kicking the ball dead, Fetish just didn't give him the ball for 10 minutes, scored a try and then Crowley's next touches we're putting Byrne through.

He's not the best 9 in the game but is a highly effective international one unless asked to slowly manage and box kick his way through one. Neither team he plays in wants that.

I'll give you that, he is experienced, and he has grown from the average Murray back up.

He has benefitted from club and countryside form currently, I dont think he offers much more than being a solid campaigner, but hes by no mean a bad 9.

Personally I wouldnt swap him for Tomos William's or Gareth Davies (although his kicking is far better than Davies), but I would swap about 10 other Irish players lol

 

[dirty harry]

I agree with all of this except I draw the line at booing your own players. I'm a big fan of booing everyone else and I've personally never liked the "respect the kicker" BS. Respect your kicker but don't ask me to respect opposition kickers.

What is it about booing one of your own do you dislike? I nearly smashed up a number of TV's in that Cuthbert era, as did I in the Chris Czeckai era lol.