[2023 Six Nations] England Squad

[Geordie]

This is why sports psychologists are so damn important and yet it seems so often overlooked. The physical attributes of the players is only half the battle, they need to be mentally up for it, and England too often just do not look fired up for games. When was the last game England really looked like they wanted to get stuck into their opponents? Probably the 2019 WC semi against NZ and in the warm up game against Ireland going into that. Too often our players just don't look like they give a damn. You look at teams that have stayed at the top, they very rarely completely capitulate like that even when well beaten.

So many teams get fired up for England and yet who do we actually get fired up for? The only "must beat" team for England is the ABs, and even then it's only occasionally we turn up. When Jones first took over is the only time since 2003 I can think of when England went on a sustained period of actually turning up to games, being absolutely brutal and fighting right to the bitter end. Players gave it their all. Now we frequently see players giving up on a chase, not even bothering to drift to close a defensive gap, standing by watching as a ruck gets turned over, not absolutely legging it to support a break. Too many players just seem to be in cruise control and it's infuriating. If we were losing but trying our best you'd say fair enough, there wasn't anything more to give but these players look like they have so much more to give but can't get fired up enough to bother.

Years ago Harinordoquay said I hate the English...I don't care if we lose every game as long as we beat them you'd never hear our nice guys saying that.

 

[Geordie]

One thing that I keep questioning after yesterday is what the hell is going on with S&C coaching at club level? Compared to the French we just looked so small and unathletic.

I completely get that not every player needs to look like Mr. Olympia but the likes of Dombrandt and Malins are 25/26 year old international athletes playing a contact sport and they look like they don't know what a gym is. I know there was the old joke about Dombrandt's 'uni rig' but he's been a pro rugby player for nearly 5 full seasons now and he's still just so physically unimpressive. Malins looks more frail than most footballers.

What training are some of these lads actually doing on a week to week basis?

Apparently The tigers S&C coach is joining England on the summer.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

That's very good to hear. So in the not to distant future we might have an option of a lock with some real physicality for England...brutal tackler etc . Itoje better stepup his game

Carrying is so good now also.
Ran through Reid like nothing

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Apparently The tigers S&C coach is joining England on the summer.

I have been thinking about it more and in fairness I've realised the fault probably doesn't lie with the S&C coaches.

Generally in off-season/pre-season players will basically live in the gym, but once the season hits they can only really lift for 2, maybe 3 days a week (tend to need 2 days after the game to recover and 2 days before a game to make sure they're fresh and firing).

Essentially, they build all of their strength before the season and the rest of the season is just a race against atrophy to maintain that strength and muscle mass.

The issue for England players is that they don't get an off-season/pre-season. They go almost straight from summer tour into the season, and so they never have a period of time where they can actually make any serious progress. They're constantly just in that race against atrophy, hence why we often see such a big difference in players who have had long injury lay offs (Curry, Watson), because they have a period of time away from the game where they can actually focus on physical development.

But players in teams like Ireland get regular rest during the season, and so have periods where they can focus on physical development.

So, like so many others things, I think a big part of why our players aren't as physically developed is because they're being severely overplayed.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Apparently The tigers S&C coach is joining England on the summer.

If he can bring his "strength and conditioning plan" that has seen Martin pack on about 3st of muscle over the course of one season then that'd be nice

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

If he can bring his "strength and conditioning plan" that has seen Martin pack on about 3st of muscle over the course of one season then that'd be nice

A diet consisting of nothing except animals you have killed with your bare hands and juice from a special plant in South Africa.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

A diet consisting of nothing except animals you have killed with your bare hands and juice from a special plant in South Africa.

And that special bottle Djokovic has

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I have been thinking about it more and in fairness I've realised the fault probably doesn't lie with the S&C coaches.

Generally in off-season/pre-season players will basically live in the gym, but once the season hits they can only really lift for 2, maybe 3 days a week (tend to need 2 days after the game to recover and 2 days before a game to make sure they're fresh and firing).

Essentially, they build all of their strength before the season and the rest of the season is just a race against atrophy to maintain that strength and muscle mass.

The issue for England players is that they don't get an off-season/pre-season. They go almost straight from summer tour into the season, and so they never have a period of time where they can actually make any serious progress. They're constantly just in that race against atrophy, hence why we often see such a big difference in players who have had long injury lay offs (Curry, Watson), because they have a period of time away from the game where they can actually focus on physical development.

But players in teams like Ireland get regular rest during the season, and so have periods where they can focus on physical development.

So, like so many others things, I think a big part of why our players aren't as physically developed is because they're being severely overplayed.

The irony is that the average French performances before England had been put down to player tiredness and their pack was supposed to be vulnerable to being run around. The top 14 is also supposed to be slower than the Prem.

All the stats around possession, territory etc favoured Eng. Our ruck ball was actually quicker. Pens conceded were 11 v 12. We even got 3 scrum pens from them while only conceding 1. We actually made 1 more dominant tackle. We won 89% of our rucks against France's 68%.

Why France won….

Our missed tackles were 27 from 142 against France's 20 from 144.

9 line breaks against 1 is pretty stark.

11 French offloads against 3

8 Eng bad passes against 4

13 Eng handling errors against 7

So basically it's skills. Pace and intensity obviously come into it, but fundamentally they were just better at rugby than us.

Whether you want to read anything into it or not, we kicked 18% of our possession against France's 11%.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Porter in for Lawrence the only change, I think? I can't really remember what the previous 36 man squad was

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I wonder if we've just built our pick round the wrong type of players as a group.

I look at a player like George and yes he's good at darts and he's quite mobile but he's not a wrecking ball. Then we've had Itoje who again is good around the park (kind of) but again he's not a beast or very dominant. Previously we've had Billy who punched well below his weight for quite some time. As a group maybe they work when you have a beastly underhill and curry combo with Mako (when he was on form). But maybe we've just got the wrong combination in the pack.

This isn't really a criticism as such but I think the balance is just not there at the moment and I really think this WC is too late to change the spine of the team as that's what I think needs to happen.

You need a pack to dominate and is this pack really going to do that.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Porter in for Lawrence the only change, I think? I can't really remember what the previous 36 man squad was

Collier in for Heyes as well.

 

[TommiG88]

Porter in for Lawrence the only change, I think? I can't really remember what the previous 36 man squad was

Would have preferred Dingwall in there over Porter.

No matter what team we put out, we will get spanked

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The irony is that the average French performances before England had been put down to player tiredness and their pack was supposed to be vulnerable to being run around. The top 14 is also supposed to be slower than the Prem.

All the stats around possession, territory etc favoured Eng. Our ruck ball was actually quicker. Pens conceded were 11 v 12. We even got 3 scrum pens from them while only conceding 1. We actually made 1 more dominant tackle. We won 89% of our rucks against France's 68%.

Why France won….

Our missed tackles were 27 from 142 against France's 20 from 144.

9 line breaks against 1 is pretty stark.

11 French offloads against 3

8 Eng bad passes against 4

13 Eng handling errors against 7

So basically it's skills. Pace and intensity obviously come into it, but fundamentally they were just better at rugby than us.

Whether you want to read anything into it or not, we kicked 18% of our possession against France's 11%.

It's about key moments, England can make metres up the field but you can then have 0 confidence they won't infringe or get turned over once they reach the 22. We can make ground until the opponents really need to stop us, then we tend to lose it. Kinda like Italy vs Wales, doing all the hard work then messing it up. France on the other hand rarely messed up. Also our scramble defence is absolute **** poor. As soon as our front line is breached, everyone gives up the chase. A lot of tried England have conceded could have been stopped if the drift and scramble defences were done properly instead of players ambling around not putting effort into anything that isn't directly in front of them.

 

[Geordie]

I wonder if we've just built our pick round the wrong type of players as a group.

I look at a player like George and yes he's good at darts and he's quite mobile but he's not a wrecking ball. Then we've had Itoje who again is good around the park (kind of) but again he's not a beast or very dominant. Previously we've had Billy who punched well below his weight for quite some time. As a group maybe they work when you have a beastly underhill and curry combo with Mako (when he was on form). But maybe we've just got the wrong combination in the pack.

This isn't really a criticism as such but I think the balance is just not there at the moment and I really think this WC is too late to change the spine of the team as that's what I think needs to happen.

You need a pack to dominate and is this pack really going to do that.

Its about balance...you need the artists and the piano lifters...we've swayed too much for the artists through out the 15...

You need guys who win collisions and are dynamic.

Dombrandt got the ball at one stage on Saturday and actually fell in to the contact!! Sums it up for me.

Fortunately Borthwick changed the Tigers to exactly that...thats why i have some hope he will change the make up of this England team.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Carrying is so good now also.
Ran through Reid like nothing

And how many times does he do that and then get injured? And that wasn't even in one of Eddie's training camps.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Would have preferred Dingwall in there over Porter.

No matter what team we put out, we will get spanked

Yep, Dingwall has been playing so well for Saints he'd definitely be there for me

I hope Borthwick doesn't use Lawrence's injury as an excuse to revert to Farrell at 12 - though Porter/Manu aren't particularly inspiring choices there either tbh

 

[Crash Hamster]

It's about key moments, England can make metres up the field but you can then have 0 confidence they won't infringe or get turned over once they reach the 22.

Or kick it away with an overlap beckoning...

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I hope Borthwick doesn't use Lawrence's injury as an excuse to revert to Farrell at 12 - though Porter/Manu aren't particularly inspiring choices there either tbh

Manu isn't an option at all, is he?

 

[g6mcg]

I have been thinking about it more and in fairness I've realised the fault probably doesn't lie with the S&C coaches.

Generally in off-season/pre-season players will basically live in the gym, but once the season hits they can only really lift for 2, maybe 3 days a week (tend to need 2 days after the game to recover and 2 days before a game to make sure they're fresh and firing).

Essentially, they build all of their strength before the season and the rest of the season is just a race against atrophy to maintain that strength and muscle mass.

The issue for England players is that they don't get an off-season/pre-season. They go almost straight from summer tour into the season, and so they never have a period of time where they can actually make any serious progress. They're constantly just in that race against atrophy, hence why we often see such a big difference in players who have had long injury lay offs (Curry, Watson), because they have a period of time away from the game where they can actually focus on physical development.

But players in teams like Ireland get regular rest during the season, and so have periods where they can focus on physical development.

So, like so many others things, I think a big part of why our players aren't as physically developed is because they're being severely overplayed.

Do France face the same issue? I haven't followed the Top 14 closely but my impression was that they're similarly overplayed.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Manu isn't an option at all, is he?

Yesterday was his last banned game