[2023 Six Nations] England Squad

[HamJan]

Yep, Dingwall has been playing so well for Saints he'd definitely be there for me

I hope Borthwick doesn't use Lawrence's injury as an excuse to revert to Farrell at 12 - though Porter/Manu aren't particularly inspiring choices there either tbh

I reckon he'll go Ford, Farrell, Manu

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

You need a pack to dominate and is this pack really going to do

100% agree. But who, particularly in the front 5?

Where's our Etzebeths, our Kitshoffs, our Marxs?

One of my favourite 6s is O'Mahony. Not the biggest, but athletic, tough and a demeanour that screams 'don't screw with me'. Flannery was another who I never wanted to meet down a dark alley.

 

[LIONSxv]

Do France face the same issue? I haven't followed the Top 14 closely but my impression was that they're similarly overplayed.

Yeah they do, they definitely focus more on S&C than the English clubs do. Mercer gave a great interview when he first moved across on the subject.
They also look like they have better "enhancers" than we have

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I reckon he'll go Ford, Farrell, Manu

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I reckon he'll go Ford, Farrell, Manu

Not impossible.

But would scream that he has no idea what he's really doing.

Smith, Farrell, Farrell, Smith, Ford would be more ins and outs than the Hokey Cokey. Smith has to be given another shot.

 

[ncurd]

Not impossible.

But would scream that he has no idea what he's really doing.

Smith, Farrell, Farrell, Smith, Ford would be more ins and outs than the Hokey Cokey. Smith has to be given another shot.

I don't know how given that he threw him at the wolves how Smith doesn't get to at least the first two warm up games against Wales.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

100% agree. But who, particularly in the front 5?

Where's our Etzebeths, our Kitshoffs, our Marxs?

One of my favourite 6s is O'Mahony. Not the biggest, but athletic, tough and a demeanour that screams 'don't screw with me'. Flannery was another who I never wanted to meet down a dark alley.

I can't really offer players up but if I'm being honest (this is harsh) but

George not dominate enough in the tight,
Sinckler is a passenger in most games these days for England,
Itoje is an average 6, not a lock and not a tight player,
I love Ludlam but he's not massive, so you need a bigger 8 and Dombrant isn't that.
Then Willis at 7 needs more time,
Dombrant just isn't big enough nor does he seem to be cutting it at this level yet.

So I can't offer solutions but o can say that I'd happy look for replacements for hooker, TH, lock (Itoje), 8 but not 6 or 6 but not 8.

I agree with the posts above though that our players look smaller and weaker compared to most other nations at the moment.

Not sure what the short term option is.
Dunn, Collier, ribbons and a curry/ Willis back row with mercer when he's back at 8?

Really don't know.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I can't really offer players up but if I'm being honest (this is harsh) but

George not dominate enough in the tight,
Sinckler is a passenger in most games these days for England,
Itoje is an average 6, not a lock and not a tight player,
I love Ludlam but he's not massive, so you need a bigger 8 and Dombrant isn't that.
Then Willis at 7 needs more time,
Dombrant just isn't big enough nor does he seem to be cutting it at this level yet.

So I can't offer solutions but o can say that I'd happy look for replacements for hooker, TH, lock (Itoje), 8 but not 6 or 6 but not 8.

I agree with the posts above though that our players look smaller and weaker compared to most other nations at the moment.

Not sure what the short term option is.
Dunn, Collier, ribbons and a curry/ Willis back row with mercer when he's back at 8?

Really don't know.

Itoje is "not a lock" is... An interesting take...

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

And how many times does he do that and then get injured? And that wasn't even in one of Eddie's training camps.

Martin doesn't have much of a injury record tbf
14 games this season
22 games last season
16 games the season before

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Itoje is "not a lock" is... An interesting take...

Maybe that's over simplifying things but what I wanted to say is that he doesn't seem big enough to play international rugby at lock. He's not offering what the rucking, tackling hard hitting aspects of a lock that the game needs.

Maybe he works in a pack with a massive other 5 but meh.

 

[Geordie]

Itoje is a conundrum. Regardless of health issues he's playing a new role apparently. Doing more nuts n bolts. I really dont seem him as that type of player. Hes a nusiance player who can cause havoc in the right set up. The problem is that he isnt a dynamic carrier or tackler. And hes not got the skills to offload / create like Flament showed on Saturday...

Crazy to say but Going forward i think his position could be at risk...

Chessum will improve considerably...despite already having a good tournament.

Then you have a clutch of 6'8 / 6'9 kids coming through...and George Martin moving to lock and seemingly excelling in that physical power role.

Its going to be very interesting...but post WC we SHOULD be looking to and able to put out a balanced pack that combines soft skills, nuisance and brute dynamic carrying and tackling.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

You need guys who win collisions

That's why I said on here a few times, not always to universal acclaim, that I felt Underhill was our most important player. Simply because he made dominant hits that could change momentum.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That's why I said on here a few times, not always to universal acclaim, that I felt Underhill was our most important player. Simply because he made dominant hits that could change momentum.

Yeah but he's not a lock so why would we want him in the backrow?

 

[Geordie]

That's why I said on here a few times, not always to universal acclaim, that I felt Underhill was our most important player. Simply because he made dominant hits that could change momentum.

Agree...he was brutal. Sadly thats led to where he is at the moment. Hopefully he recovers...but he'll need to assess his future.

BUT we do have other options and bigger versions now...we need to be looking at them.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Martin doesn't have much of a injury record tbf
14 games this season
22 games last season
16 games the season before

He's also only 21. Don't get me wrong great to see he can bust tackles, and not seen much of the player. But hope he's got some genuine nous to go with it. It's like an arms race - stronger , faster, heavier. He puts on 3 stone more muscle so he can smash past more 17/18 stone plus players but then no good if he's then getting isolated and turned over or long term on the treatment table.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah but he's not a lock so why would we want him in the backrow?

Now, now!

Funny innit? For all we hype up our depth of back rowers, we're sitting here talking about being comprehensively outplayed there with players being either invisible or not fit enough.

The jump between Prem and international is huge. Until we start doing well in Europe again (a whole different can of worms) it's hard to see the national team really moving forward. Some form of central contracting feels inevitable.

We like to have a new saviour from time to time so I hereby anoint CCS with the poisoned chalice.

 

[Geordie]

Now, now!

Funny innit? For all we hype up our depth of back rowers, we're sitting here talking about being comprehensively outplayed there with players being either invisible or not fit enough.

The jump between Prem and international is huge. Until we start doing well in Europe again (a whole different can of worms) it's hard to see the national team really moving forward. Some form of central contracting feels inevitable.

We like to have a new saviour from time to time so I hereby anoint CCS with the poisoned chalice.

Ive already listed him earlier....he IS the Saviour!

 

[Scotty]

Ive already listed him earlier....he IS the Saviour!

I thought that was Arundell?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Now, now!

Funny innit? For all we hype up our depth of back rowers, we're sitting here talking about being comprehensively outplayed there with players being either invisible or not fit enough.

The jump between Prem and international is huge. Until we start doing well in Europe again (a whole different can of worms) it's hard to see the national team really moving forward. Some form of central contracting feels inevitable.

We like to have a new saviour from time to time so I hereby anoint CCS with the poisoned chalice.

I agree with what someone posted earlier, I think English players are overworked and something needs to be done. They can look good in the prem vs other overworked players but the Irish, French and Kiwis get much more time off.

The interesting one would be seeing how foreign players in the Prem play back in their own national sides. In theory, foreign players from other tier 1 nations would suffer similar drops in form after a prolonged period in the Prem. It's quite telling how our players have looked best the short times they have actually had a break from playing and more time to work on their conditioning. In theory it should also reduce injuries.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I have just seen that for all the flack that Itoje's getting, he's actually made the most tackles of any England player, the second most dominant tackles (after Ludlam) and the most breakdown steals.

He isn't playing as well as he used to but he is still putting in some shift.