[2022 Six Nations] France vs England (19/03/22)

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

To be fair, the turnaround is tactical rather than personnel IMO. We have plenty of players who are more than good enough, but they're being undermined by weird selections and terrible tactics.

A new coaching team (including some top level appointments in attack and defence coaching rather than rugby league no-marks) would probably be excited to work with the raw material that's available.

Honest question does England have the budget to appoint those top level coaches especially with the posion chalice of taking over a team 1 year out.

People point to Rassie but It's was Rassie dream to coach SA
How many coaches dream of coaching England and of those really how many are ready yet?


Also the way the clubs and union works is a massive hindrance.
Most unions really would by now pick the most promising assistant coaches and bring them up trouble is the RFU has to compete with it's clubs for those coaches.

Let's say Vesty as an example
Do you think Saints would easily let Vesty go to be a backs coach for England when he is viewed as their next Head Coach?


England is currently paying for about 10 years + of neglecting it's coaching pathways. We are now starting to see all these promising former players going into coaching and developing Wigglesworth a good case study of this.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

As an England supporter I feel the best thing for the team is to lose this match.

I'll always support England but i stopped enjoying watching England a while ago unfortunately. I can imagine this is how it feels to be a Worcester fan.

 

[BPM]

Honest question does England have the budget to appoint those top level coaches especially with the posion chalice of taking over a team 1 year out.

People point to Rassie but It's was Rassie dream to coach SA
How many coaches dream of coaching England and of those really how many are ready yet?


Also the way the clubs and union works is a massive hindrance.
Most unions really would by now pick the most promising assistant coaches and bring them up trouble is the RFU has to compete with it's clubs for those coaches.

Let's say Vesty as an example
Do you think Saints would easily let Vesty go to be a backs coach for England when he is viewed as their next Head Coach?


England is currently paying for about 10 years + of neglecting it's coaching pathways. We are now starting to see all these promising former players going into coaching and developing Wigglesworth a good case study of this.

Possibly not, but I'd like to think we can do better than a revolving door of uninspiring coaches with limited value to add. Mitchell can't have been cheap and wasn't replaced like-for-like.

I absolutely agree on the the way the clubs and union work being a major limitation, but that's not changing any time soon. I'd argue that working for the national team should be the pinnacle of the sport and unless you're employed by a team genuinely in contention for ***les and European honours, surely should be a better option. Using your example of Vesty - stay with a middling Saints team with Dowson as your DoR or take an attack coaching role with England at the RWC. I know what sounds more attractive to me*.

Rassie might have won a World Cup, but I find it strange that people seem to want him when he's almost as marmite as Eddie and has generally coached sides with a tactically limited, ambition-free style. I see him as a worse version of Eddie TBH.

*albeit not as a coach under Eddie

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Shame on any of you wanting us to lose. When you wish for that, you simply stop being a supporter of the team IMO. You can't just pick and choose when you show your support. This isn't football.

Eddie's lost my loyalty, but I still don't see an obvious replacement. I also feel like the problems are now so obvious that even a win will not do much to paper over the cracks.

I'm not looking forward to the game, but come kick off I will be supporting the team.

Agreed, although sometimes you have to acknowledge that you need to take a step back to move forward. Supporting a team is a long term commitment and doesn't have to be blind or exclusively in the here and now.

If the best thing for the team in the medium / long term is a change of regime then something has to be the catalyst.

That comes with all the caveats about who might take over, cost, timing etc.

 

[BPM]

As an England supporter I feel the best thing for the team is to lose this match.

I'll always support England but i stopped enjoying watching England a while ago unfortunately. I can imagine this is how it feels to be a Worcester fan.

I can't agree with your first sentence, but I completely agree/relate to the second.

 

[BPM]

Agreed, although sometimes you have to acknowledge that you need to take a step back to move forward. Supporting a team is a long term commitment and doesn't have to be blind or exclusively in the here and now.

If the best thing for the team in the medium / long term is a change of regime then something has to be the catalyst.

That comes with all the caveats about who might take over, cost, timing etc.

Exactly …

The thing is, I don't think we actually need to lose as a 'catalyst'. Even if we do pull off a miraculous win, I don't think anyone would regard this tournament as a success or any kind of step forward.

Eddie is paid a hell of a lot of money and is obviously under-delivering. There's only so long that can go on for.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

especially with the posion chalice of taking over a team 1 year out.

This is the main reason I think EJ is safe
I don't doubt the RFU has their feelers out but on top of a severance payment, who's gonna want the job?
Even if you have complete confidence in your skills, 12 months is a very short amount of time to embed yourself in the role scout all the players see who's got what skills work out your gameplans etc.
If you were promoting from within you could manage it but our turnover of assistant coaches is crazy so there's no one who could step up
And then you add on that a new coach is very unlikely to be able to assemble the assistants that they'd want as everyone would already be employed elsewhere

Borthwick is, I think, the only coach who could slot in on this short notice - lots of experience of coaching with EJ so knows what the players have been up to, has coached with England so knows the setup, and is in English rugby so has a lot of experience analysing the player pool available
However I doubt he'd leave Tigers so soon, even if they won the double, and I imagine Tigers have got him in a pretty ironclad contract after he jumped ship from Bristol to join England before

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Possibly not, but I'd like to think we can do better than a revolving door of uninspiring coaches with limited value to add. Mitchell can't have been cheap and wasn't replaced like-for-like.

I absolutely agree on the the way the clubs and union work being a major limitation, but that's not changing any time soon. I'd argue that working for the national team should be the pinnacle of the sport and unless you're employed by a team genuinely in contention for ***les and European honours, surely should be a better option. Using your example of Vesty - stay with a middling Saints team with Dowson as your DoR or take an attack coaching role with England at the RWC. I know what sounds more attractive to me*.

Rassie might have won a World Cup, but I find it strange that people seem to want him when he's almost as marmite as Eddie and has generally coached sides with a tactically limited, ambition-free style. I see him as a worse version of Eddie TBH.

*albeit not as a coach under Eddie

I mean promotion to head coach and pay increase v England for a year or 2 on alright pay and then looking to leave to find a head coach gig at a club which is pure pot luck in terms of who is looking.

Head coach roles are hard to find on the whole again largely down to the way clubs work and that they can sign anyone in the world. Saints might be middling but they are pretty loyal to their coaches and will give him time. In 2 years time which clubs can you safely say who are better than Saints would be looking for a head coach.

The biggest question young coaches will have to ask themselves is IMO
1. do they want to be a head coach
2. Are they good enough to be a head coach.

and they will only really find that out when they get a shot at being a head coach.

 

[Reiser99]

Tbh there was a coach available who is doing well at international level, but the RFU turned him down twice. He would certainly be passionate about the job. On issues are is his success down to Leinster's success and would the selections be rife with nepotism?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Tbh there was a coach available who is doing well at international level, but the RFU turned him down twice. He would certainly be passionate about the job. On issues are is his success down to Leinster's success and would the selections be rife with nepotism?

Why would he leave Ireland a year before the RWC?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Exactly …

The thing is, I don't think we actually need to lose as a 'catalyst'. Even if we do pull off a miraculous win, I don't think anyone would regard this tournament as a success or any kind of step forward.

Eddie is paid a hell of a lot of money and is obviously under-delivering. There's only so long that can go on for.

I suspect the opposite - if we do win tonight I think that will totally shut down the debate.

It would be a better record than last year, with a load of injuries, including an away win against one of the best in the world. Jones would also point to our losses being on the back of 2 massive individual brain farts that he couldn't control - LCD v Sco and Ewels v Ire. I'm not saying I agree with that view, but I think it would prevail.

 

[Which Tyler]

Rassie might have won a World Cup, but I find it strange that people seem to want him when he's almost as marmite as Eddie and has generally coached sides with a tactically limited, ambition-free style. I see him as a worse version of Eddie TBH.

I'd take Rassie over Jake White, or Warren Gatland.
Beyond that though, I'd take a punt of Baxter, Sanderson or Borthwick first - and none of those are remotely ready.

 

[Reiser99]

Why would he leave Ireland a year before the RWC?

I said was available, not is. He was willing to coach under EJ if he was next in line according to the times article.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I wonder if Shaun Edwards would take the England job post RWC?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I wonder if Shaun Edwards would take the England job post RWC?

Edwards is such a odd one
On Paper his record is impressive even as a head coach he won the prem and European championship with Wasps.
But then he's gone 11 years basically as a assistant coach.
Still he's only 55, I do think he might work as a head coach but England head coach role might be a bit too much in terms of off field ****.

My preference is
Non English
Jamie Joesph

English
Andy Farrell

Andy Farrell is 46 2 RWC he will be 56 and then Borthwick, Skivington, Sanderson etc will be approaching their 50's with about 10 years head coach experience and about 20 years coaching in general.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't want Rassie but feel like he's the front runner (unless Farrell leaves Ireland after the RWC, which I don't think he will)

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Avoiding Paris pain would only paper cracks for Jones’s maddening England | Robert Kitson

Eddie Jones’s side can deny France a first grand slam since 2010 on Saturday but the contrast between the sides is striking

www.theguardian.com

this was quite the takedown

A bit upset that I have to wait til 4pm to watch this match.

It reads as though his english teacher asked him to stuff 50 clichéd metaphors into 300 words

 

[General Melchett]

This is the main reason I think EJ is safe
I don't doubt the RFU has their feelers out but on top of a severance payment, who's gonna want the job?
Even if you have complete confidence in your skills, 12 months is a very short amount of time to embed yourself in the role scout all the players see who's got what skills work out your gameplans etc.
If you were promoting from within you could manage it but our turnover of assistant coaches is crazy so there's no one who could step up
And then you add on that a new coach is very unlikely to be able to assemble the assistants that they'd want as everyone would already be employed elsewhere

Borthwick is, I think, the only coach who could slot in on this short notice - lots of experience of coaching with EJ so knows what the players have been up to, has coached with England so knows the setup, and is in English rugby so has a lot of experience analysing the player pool available
However I doubt he'd leave Tigers so soon, even if they won the double, and I imagine Tigers have got him in a pretty ironclad contract after he jumped ship from Bristol to join England before

What about Cockers? He could be an option to step in as HC on an interim basis. He's already on the payroll and so wouldn't cost much to install as HC even if they did pay Eddie off. He's the kind of coach that can make an instant impact as he did at Edinburgh. It's not like he's coming in cold and yet he'd still be able to freshen things up given he's been there less than a year. Think I'd rather give him a shot than carry on with more of the same with EJ.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What about Cockers? He could be an option to step in as HC on an interim basis. He's already on the payroll and so wouldn't cost much to install as HC even if they did pay Eddie off. He's the kind of coach that can make an instant impact as he did at Edinburgh. It's not like he's coming in cold and yet he'd still be able to freshen things up given he's been there less than a year.

Good point, I'd forgotten about Cockers - wouldn't be surprised if he had an eye on EJs role post RWC

Still feel like most coaches would be hesitant to jump straight into a RWC - there's obvious mitigation for a poor result, if it were to happen, but the history books won't remember that and the blazers will be happy to stab you in the back to draw a line under it

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Agreed, although sometimes you have to acknowledge that you need to take a step back to move forward. Supporting a team is a long term commitment and doesn't have to be blind or exclusively in the here and now.

If the best thing for the team in the medium / long term is a change of regime then something has to be the catalyst.

That comes with all the caveats about who might take over, cost, timing etc.