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[2021 Six Nations] England vs Italy (13/02/21)

When was the last time Farrell had a MotM performance for England?

I mean if we're going to state we've won matches be one of him I'd like to know when was the last time it occured.
MOTM is a bit weird, Ben Youngs has won it about 3 times in the past 2 years. Wyn Jones won it for Wales last week, which was ludicrous in the extreme. What I think you're really asking is when did Faz last have a great performance for England... ? Against Wales in the ANC?
 
MOTM is a bit weird, Ben Youngs has won it about 3 times in the past 2 years. Wyn Jones won it for Wales last week, which was ludicrous in the extreme. What I think you're really asking is when did Faz last have a great performance for England... ? Against Wales in the ANC?
I'm 99% sure he didn't because he was **** all ANC

But yes that the point when was the last time he put in a match winning performance.
 
I'd say the last time Faz looked truly World Class was against Ireland in the 2019 Six Nations. He's had good performances since but that game he was properly top drawer.
 
I'm 99% sure he didn't because he was **** all ANC

But yes that the point when was the last time he put in a match winning performance.
I'm not sure, but he seems to have captained us to an awful lot of wins while being ****. Weird that. :p
 
I'm not sure, but he seems to have captained us to an awful lot of wins while being ****. Weird that. :p
Whilst we have a distinct lack of on field leadership the role of the captain is vastly overstated in just about every sport except Cricket.

Were the richest nation with one the biggest player basis. We should be able to win games without looking like complete crap.

But we get your point you only care about winning and don't care about the manner in which we do.
 
Most of the above arguments fall apart when you really dissect them. Having never actually tried the 'form' premiership players Jones would never know if they are better or not.

Jones is too stubborn to try something like Ford, Lawrence, Slade invade he looks wrong sticking with Farrell for so long. Against Scotland we needed to break the line and instead of getting Lawrence into the game to try that he just took him off and replaced him with Farrell who offers the least running threat of anyone in our squad.

Farrell, Youngs and Billy V are not going to be World Cup winners. We need to invest in the time to find others who are.
 
I'm not sure, but he seems to have captained us to an awful lot of wins while being ****. Weird that. :p
Terrible logic. We beat Argentina with 14 men, that means we need to only play with 14 men to win.

Just because we won doesn't mean we couldn't have won in other and better ways.
 
Is it a repeat of 2018 all over again? I remember us losing 6 in a row in 2018. So far, we've lost 1. I might regret saying that if we lose to Italy, but hey, English arrogance. :D

None of the leadership group have changed? Well that's normal isn't it? Surely it's better that they learn from negative experiences than you just rip them out of the team when they fail? Wilkinson started that 78-0 defeat to Oz (b*****r me, I've still never got over that!). Dallaglio and Johnson as captains blew multiple grand slams by failing to adapt. Leadership isn't this automatic thing that you're good at or you're not, it takes time, experience and, most importantly, failure. Learning from their mistakes is what will make our leadership group work, not throwing them out as soon as they get something wrong.

Agree with you about the number 2 scrum half, it is ridiculous.:mad:

"That is why people are angry, he simply is refusing to recognise the problem, refusing to take a multitude of chances to fix it and it's showing in the performance of the side."

1 loss in 9 games. 2 trophies last year. I'm sorry, I don't get why you think it's showing in the performance of the side.

Agree about Dunn. It's weird. Farrell though? The dude's won us a lot of games, played some great rugby and proved himself again and again. Is he out of form? Yes, absolutely. Do I want him to play himself back into form so that he is once again a top player who annoys the **** out of the opposition and leads us to victory after victory? Hell, yeah! Can he do that if we drop him? Er... I dunno.
It's a repeat of the start of 2018 then. It's exactly the same pattern, long standing weaknesses are not addressed as long as we continue to scrape wins. The performance of the side slides and gets worse and worse until those close wins whilst playing badly turn into losses. We have just gone through the scraping wins whilst playing badly part and now we are transitioning into the playing badly and losing part. What reason is there to think that the players who have underperformed for the last year and going to turn in around in a week? It may not be as bad as 2018 because Wales and Ireland are also in a bad way but we are following the same pattern and it feels like, without a really **** set of results, nothing will change. He'll play all the same players to "win" the 6N because he trusts no-one else so then we get into the Lions and internationals. At this rate we could be left with a few of the "leadership" team not going. What then? Jones retains them for the England internationals as the "stable core" and then tinkers around with the positions that aren't problems and then claims he has experimented so all is well? Whilst seeing more 6, 7 and 13 might be interesting, they are not positions that need looking at. Every time Jones has said he will look to change things, it's been everything except the areas that actually needed changing. Last major change he did in an area that actually needed changing? 6 & 7 and it took the 2018 6N before he would budge on that and accept it was a problem.

It's normal for the leadership group to not change when they are playing in a way that justifies their position. None of the leadership group are currently playing at a level deserving of their ***le. This isn't a case of "throwing out as soon as something goes wrong", none of the leadership group have grown or learned. When have you ever seen Youngs, Farrell or Vunipola take the game by the scruff of the neck and get us back in control once it's started sliding? Nearly every game we have played once we have begun to lose control, we haven't been able to regain it until the dying seconds when the kicking ******** is dropped and we actually try to play high intensity possession rugby. Youngs in particular always shirks responsibility when things start to go wrong, whether it is in a maul or ruck or any position he will never put himself in a position where he intervenes to make or break a situation. He will happily stand back and just watch a maul get dragged down or a ruck get turned over rather than take it upon himself to remedy the situation. That is not leadership.

The 1 loss in 9 games argument is just the same as the "world record winning streak" argument back in 2018. Yeah we had some great stats before that and then it very rapidly went down the toilet.

Farrell has always been overrated as it is and has been living off a not wholly earned reputation. At his best he was a good player but this "iceman" ******** is simply not true. He's shown himself to get flustered, miss kicks and have a poor temperament lots of times, he is a far cry from an iceman. If I was to pick someone I thought was more of an iceman in the side it would be someone like Underhill. Never seen anyone get under his skin or rile him up and relatively few idiotic mistakes. Seen tons of those with Farrell. Hell even Ford has a much more controlled attitude than Farrell. Farrell is a firecracker, not an iceman. I'm not saying Farrell should never play for England again, I'm saying he should not be untouchable. His performances over more than the last year have simply not been good enough. At the very least it is him who should be on the bench, not Ford and Lawrence certainly shouldn't have been sacrificed just to accommodate Farrell. That's the issue, it's not just that he's poor and that's it, other members of the team are suffering because of the efforts to sacrifice everyone else to accommodate him when he simply does not deserve it.
 
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The trouble is, I don't see anyone who's an improvement over Eddie, and away from the on-pitch performance, he's fulfilling his brief.

I also see what he's doing strategically, and quite honestly, it makes a refreshing change to have a head coach who's actually looking further ahead than the next match of batch of matches.

What Eddie does is he develops a game-plan for the opposition he feels is most dangerous to his team, and relies on 95% of that being good enough in the other matches - it worked for Australia in 03 (targeting NZ), South Africa in 07 (targeting Eng), Japan in 15 (targeting SA) and got us to the final in 19 with arguably 2 of the best displays England have ever produced (before failing horribly in the final).
He sees the first 2 years of a RWC cycle as a time when laws and interpretations change, and by the time the next RWC comes around, rugby is a different sport around the margins. The basics are always the same, but the margins are different. If you spend the first 2 years of a cycle fine-tuning your game plan, then A] you're fighting the last war, B] you'll be constantly tinkering and changing, potentially confusing the players, and C] showing your hand too early.

He (seems to) see the first 2 years as a time to drill the basics - 10-man rugby. Nail the fitness, lineout, maul and the kicking game This should be enough to win against all but the top 2-3 teams in the world, although obviously when it fails, it looks absolutely dire. Once things have settled down in terms of law interpretations and style of play (AKA, "after the lions") then work on the attack, the tackle area, the ruck - the stuff that's constantly changing. Ideally, work on your perfect gameplan in practice, and only show 20% of it in any one game; until less than a year out. Maybe try the whole lot in 1 single game to make sure you can actually put it together.
No point giving your opponents any more time to look at what you're doing than you absolutely have to.

5 years ago he told us all that year 2 of that RWC cycle would be about fitness, and decision making / skills whilst absolutely knackered, and that performances and results would take a hit whilst doing so, but the benefits should be seen 2 years later at the RWC. He then did exactly that, and everyone was shocked because we took a hit to performances and results that he told us to expect - and people called for his head and claimed that he didn't know what he was doing.
This year he's told us that he's working on the basics, and ignoring the attack until after the lions. It looks like he's working on the basics and ignoring the attack until after the lions, and people seem shocked that he's doing exactly that, and are calling for his head.



I don't necessarily like it, but anyone saying that he doesn't have a plan or doesn't know what he's doing (or excessively over-simplify what he's doing - "oh he thinks 8, 9 and 10 have to be hyper-experienced, and that's all he cares about") is plainly not paying attention. There's a difference between not liking the plan, and denying its existence.

I, as most of us, would far rather he came up with 2 plans (say, one for NZ, and one for SA), and put them into practice more often - &/ concentrate on our assets rather than negating our most-dangerous-opponent's - make them worry about us for a change. Of course, I'd also like to see us experiment a little more with the playing pool - especially in those first 2 years of a cycle.
Well thought out post WT but I don't buy it, or at least not all of it. We have one of the most experienced teams ever, we shouldn't need 2 years to bed in basics. With that experience and talent post RWC we should have been kicking on and developing a game that is capable of taking on all comers and then refine it and some personnel over time. If Jones has been starting from first principles there was absolutely no need to do it. Still think he's overly scarred from the final and I've seen nothing to suggest that the Boks pack wouldn't do another number on us if we played tomorrow.

The 03 team could play either through the pack or the backs. But most importantly they knew they could beat anyone because they had - more than once and in their own back yards. They had banked that experience and developed an aura - they were good and opponents knew it. This Eng team have had great days at the office and are usually quite hard to beat but no-one could say they have developed an intimidating aura or an ability to think their way out of trouble; there's a perennial soft centre and opponents will always believe they have a chance if things aren't flowing our way.

And all this is predicated on the RWC being the only thing that matters. Which is a big emphasis on a once every 4 year event where, for the best teams, a maximum of 3 games really matter.
 
Just looking at the team EJ has selected for Italy, it screams "Don't Lose"
He is so myopic that dropping out of form players is never considered.
Without going over old ground, he has missed yet another opportunity to blood hopefuls and possible's for the future.
Lawrence, Odogwu, Randall, Obano should all be in the matchday 23. We all know what the un-dropables bring to the side when they are in form, but they are badly out of form. Eddies solution is to pick and play them, denying a golden opportunity to see what fringe players can do.

I don't care if England lose to Italy now, I'm so depressed at the constant old boys club EJ has built. We have the players, but EJ won't pick them and is ordering the ones he does pick to play a negative kicking game that ignores our backs. Why?
I really fear for our chances in the remaining games v France Wales and Ireland.
 
If we lost we all know Farrell would be moved to 13, another 10 would be bought in at 12 and another lock would go into the back row. Jones doesn't fix the problems, he just creates more each time.
 
This is probably the first time I've seen the media and some ex pros actually annoyed at EJ for a starting 23. The treatment of Lawrence has really triggered them, as it should.
Barnes and Slot also having a pop in the Times.

Jones quoted as saying that Lawrence will win 50 caps if he passes this test of resilience. As the journo pointed out Jones also said Rokoduguni would win 40.
 
The lack of power in the backs is the biggest worry. Surely if Ford-Farrell is used then Slade has to drop out, it is one too many playmakers.

I am not suggesting this as I dontvthinkbthe FF system works, but sense says you need some go forward from a couple of backs especially when the quality of ball is varied.

Nowell was good at that as is big Joe, when both fit and in form, Devoto would also have been good. All I can think with the Exeter players is that they are too vocal.

Interesting, we are all saying the backline are 'shrinking violets', and maybe that's the only way Farrell can take control.

Maybe Malins suffered the same and why he moved to Bristol probably permanently.
 
We were the most dangerous side in 07?
Yes.
It's hard to remember, but we WERE the reigning champions, so planning from 2-3 years out would have highlighted us, whilst not knowing of our fall from grace.
We were also in the same group as SA, so 100% guaranteed to play us.

By winning the group, SA put themselves in the half of the draw that didn't have New Zealand or Australia, so there's no point worrying too much about the potential final oponent, because, by definition, whoever it is would be in form and firing well (lovely theory, would have been nice if it had applied to England).
OK, so they couldn't have known they'd get Fiji instead of Wales in the QF - but neither would particularly scare the Boks. They couldn't have known they'd end up against Argentina rather than France in the SF - but neither would scare the Boks MORE than England.

If you were the SA coach going into the 2007 RWC, who would you have targetted as the most dangerous oponent once the groups were announced?
 
Interesting, we are all saying the backline are 'shrinking violets', and maybe that's the only way Farrell can take control.

Maybe Malins suffered the same and why he moved to Bristol probably permanently.
Gotta say I disagree with this pretty wholeheartedly. Farrell played his best rugby at Saracens in a back line with the likes of Wigglesworth, Barritt, Goode, Maitland and Williams, none of whom are pushovers. If anything I think Farrell wants a back line of players who are going to be vocal and tell him what they want from him; it makes up for his lack of vision - he's a distributor, not a playmaker.

On Malins I think you're reading into it too much; he wasn't regularly cracking the 23 at Sarries as he was behind Faz at 10 and Goode at 15 who'd been staples of that backline for years. Moving to Bristol was simply a case of getting game time and not wanting to play in the Championship.
 
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