[2021 Six Nations] England vs Italy (13/02/21)

[Bada-Bing!]

I hate to break it to you, but you know there are other teams who play, and far more exciting than England

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Wow, the negativity on here is sensational! Anyone would think that England had lost 8 of their last 9 games. Then again, it seems that only Scottish fans were truly happy with their team's performance last weekend (despite the fact they only scored 11 points!) The feeling I get from this thread is that a lot of fans would like to see us lose to Italy so that Eddie can get the sack, and then England can... er... something...

The fact is that England came out flat in their first game of the 6N, were completely outplayed, yet managed to nick a bonus point despite not deserving it on the balance of play, and their conquerors were lauded as the greatest thing since sliced bread while England fans and the media said that Eddie had lost the plot, gone mad, lost the team, must be sacked etc. No, I'm not talking about last weekend, I'm talking about last year. And we all know how that turned out. What a load of sausages.

England don't need a massive overhaul. They have got a damn good team full of damn good players, depth in many positions and an average age in the squad of 26. Their defence is excellent, their pack (apart from last week) excellent, their scrum, lineout and maul all excellent. Its attack that's the bugbear at the moment in terms of gameplan, execution and several players out of form. England need improvements, sure, but they don't need wholesale change.

So, with the GS gone, England now need bonus points and points difference to have any hope of winning the ***le. France set the marker with their +35 against Italy last week. England need to get close to or better that mark to have a chance at the ***le, and that's clearly informed Eddie's selection. He's gone for proven performers over potential. There are obviously some contentious selection decisions as a result, mainly it seems Mako, Binny, Youngs and Faz. Okay so:

Mako - hasn't played and is coming off injury. He's also a team leader. On-field leadership issues are something else that everybody complains about with England. So the choice is stark: do you put another leader on the field and risk the fact that he is undercooked, or do you stick with Genge knowing that he won't bring the on-field leadership Mako does but has some kind of form? 6 of one, half-a-dozen of the other.

Binny - I'm nowhere near as down on Binny as some people here. His workrate is excellent, he makes a lot of tackles (more than any other England player in the ANC), slows opposition ball at the breakdown, adds a whole cow's worth of beef to the scrum and is great at the base of the scrum. No, he doesn't make those breaks he used to, but just the presence of a 20-stone number 8 in the side means defences gravitate towards him, and that can open things up. Whether those openings are exploited is another issue, but that's hardly Binny's fault. The obvious alternative is Wilson, and I do like him at 8 (or anywhere on the field to be fair), but Italy were so poor in defence last week, not even bothering to track back half the time, that I'm happy for Binny to get the start against them. And Wilson adds some top quality when the Italians are tiring.

Youngs - Contrary to popular belief, he does have some good games for England, he's just wildly (very wildly!) inconsistent. The alternatives are Robson, who didn't look any great shakes last week, or indeed in any of his opportunities thus far, or Randall, who's a completely unknown quantity at this level. England need to win and win big with this game if they're to stay in the ***le hunt, so potential is not an option at this crucial position.

Faz - he hasn't been dropped (and I said last week I would like to see it just to send a message), but he has been demoted from 10 and shifted across to 12, so Eddie recognises this isn't the guy to be the pivot for his attack. The question then becomes Faz or Lawrence for 12. Again, while Faz has a highlight reel for England, Lawrence hasn't. Sure, Lawrence has a lot of potential, but he has yet to prove himself at international level. You can argue he hasn't had the opportunity, ball etc, which would be right, but the situation is a big win is needed and therefore proven performers trump potential. We have such an awesome record with Ford-Faz and have scored so many tries with that combo pulling the strings, it seems logical to me to select it for a game where you need to pile up the points. Last week was the experiment, it fell flat. Now it's time to use the tried and tested.

There's a bigger thing at play here too: when a player is out of form, is it better to have them play their way into form or to drop them? Which method produces better results? I would argue that it depends on the player. Eddie clearly knows his players, his success in building winning rugby teams for decades proves that. He obviously thinks his underperformers can play their way into form. Given his track record, I'm happy to trust him on that. If building winning teams was just about picking the most in-form 15 players in the country every week, we wouldn't need coaches. So many more ingredients go into that cake. And I'd be bloody surprised if Eddie hasn't given the players a s**t storm all week about their performance against Scotland and they all come out champing at the bit to make amends.

And......... backlash!

 

[Wendigo7]

TLDR

 

[klitarris]

Wow, the negativity on here is sensational! Anyone would think that England had lost 8 of their last 9 games. Then again, it seems that only Scottish fans were truly happy with their team's performance last weekend (despite the fact they only scored 11 points!) The feeling I get from this thread is that a lot of fans would like to see us lose to Italy so that Eddie can get the sack, and then England can... er... something...

The fact is that England came out flat in their first game of the 6N, were completely outplayed, yet managed to nick a bonus point despite not deserving it on the balance of play, and their conquerors were lauded as the greatest thing since sliced bread while England fans and the media said that Eddie had lost the plot, gone mad, lost the team, must be sacked etc. No, I'm not talking about last weekend, I'm talking about last year. And we all know how that turned out. What a load of sausages.

England don't need a massive overhaul. They have got a damn good team full of damn good players, depth in many positions and an average age in the squad of 26. Their defence is excellent, their pack (apart from last week) excellent, their scrum, lineout and maul all excellent. Its attack that's the bugbear at the moment in terms of gameplan, execution and several players out of form. England need improvements, sure, but they don't need wholesale change.

So, with the GS gone, England now need bonus points and points difference to have any hope of winning the ***le. France set the marker with their +35 against Italy last week. England need to get close to or better that mark to have a chance at the ***le, and that's clearly informed Eddie's selection. He's gone for proven performers over potential. There are obviously some contentious selection decisions as a result, mainly it seems Mako, Binny, Youngs and Faz. Okay so:

Mako - hasn't played and is coming off injury. He's also a team leader. On-field leadership issues are something else that everybody complains about with England. So the choice is stark: do you put another leader on the field and risk the fact that he is undercooked, or do you stick with Genge knowing that he won't bring the on-field leadership Mako does but has some kind of form? 6 of one, half-a-dozen of the other.

Binny - I'm nowhere near as down on Binny as some people here. His workrate is excellent, he makes a lot of tackles (more than any other England player in the ANC), slows opposition ball at the breakdown, adds a whole cow's worth of beef to the scrum and is great at the base of the scrum. No, he doesn't make those breaks he used to, but just the presence of a 20-stone number 8 in the side means defences gravitate towards him, and that can open things up. Whether those openings are exploited is another issue, but that's hardly Binny's fault. The obvious alternative is Wilson, and I do like him at 8 (or anywhere on the field to be fair), but Italy were so poor in defence last week, not even bothering to track back half the time, that I'm happy for Binny to get the start against them. And Wilson adds some top quality when the Italians are tiring.

Youngs - Contrary to popular belief, he does have some good games for England, he's just wildly (very wildly!) inconsistent. The alternatives are Robson, who didn't look any great shakes last week, or indeed in any of his opportunities thus far, or Randall, who's a completely unknown quantity at this level. England need to win and win big with this game if they're to stay in the ***le hunt, so potential is not an option at this crucial position.

Faz - he hasn't been dropped (and I said last week I would like to see it just to send a message), but he has been demoted from 10 and shifted across to 12, so Eddie recognises this isn't the guy to be the pivot for his attack. The question then becomes Faz or Lawrence for 12. Again, while Faz has a highlight reel for England, Lawrence hasn't. Sure, Lawrence has a lot of potential, but he has yet to prove himself at international level. You can argue he hasn't had the opportunity, ball etc, which would be right, but the situation is a big win is needed and therefore proven performers trump potential. We have such an awesome record with Ford-Faz and have scored so many tries with that combo pulling the strings, it seems logical to me to select it for a game where you need to pile up the points. Last week was the experiment, it fell flat. Now it's time to use the tried and tested.

There's a bigger thing at play here too: when a player is out of form, is it better to have them play their way into form or to drop them? Which method produces better results? I would argue that it depends on the player. Eddie clearly knows his players, his success in building winning rugby teams for decades proves that. He obviously thinks his underperformers can play their way into form. Given his track record, I'm happy to trust him on that. If building winning teams was just about picking the most in-form 15 players in the country every week, we wouldn't need coaches. So many more ingredients go into that cake. And I'd be bloody surprised if Eddie hasn't given the players a s**t storm all week about their performance against Scotland and they all come out champing at the bit to make amends.

And......... backlash!

On reflection, I agree with most of what you say. However, my personal opinion is that they key phrase is 'depth in many positions'. I agree with have very good depth in most positions, but the problem is that in some the really key ones (8, 9, 10) we really don't, and further more there appear to be players in the premiership who are consistently playing at a far higher level than the incumbents and have been for some time. If you aren't going to try them when the incumbenets are out of form and match practice, when are you? Or has Jones made his selection for the next world cup already?

I am certainly not one for wholesale changes following a single defeat. I believe BV, Youngs & Farrell all have a big part to play up to and including the next world cup. My problem is that if one of them is injured for that world cup, who is next in line? I couldn't tell you. You could say that this is because when they've been given the chance, the challengers haven't put their hands up. But firstly, are they the right challengers? And secondly, have they been given a decent chance? I would argue not.

As you say, I bet Jones has been on the warpath this week big time! We'll see what the reaction is from the players. I am now just hoping for a balanced gameplan!

 

[ncurd]

Even if we put points up against Italy what does it prove, we should be able to put put the U21's and still comfortably win? God I wish we didn't have them as opponents this week.

 

[Gavin]

Italy by 10

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

However, my personal opinion is that they key phrase is 'depth in many positions'. I agree with have very good depth in most positions, but the problem is that in some the really key ones (8, 9, 10) we really don't, and further more there appear to be players in the premiership who are consistently playing at a far higher level than the incumbents and have been for some time. If you aren't going to try them when the incumbenets are out of form and match practice, when are you? Or has Jones made his selection for the next world cup already?

I am certainly not one for wholesale changes following a single defeat. I believe BV, Youngs & Farrell all have a big part to play up to and including the next world cup. My problem is that if one of them is injured for that world cup, who is next in line? I couldn't tell you. You could say that this is because when they've been given the chance, the challengers haven't put their hands up. But firstly, are they the right challengers? And secondly, have they been given a decent chance? I would argue not.

I do take your point, but I suppose the question is: when does Eddie get a chance to experiment? Every time he loses a game, fans and media are calling for his head. He got us all the way to a WC final, knocking off the Wallabies and All-Blacks along the way, then lost the opening game to France in the 6N and there were calls for his head to roll. He then wins 8 in a row, claiming two trophies along the way, and then when he loses a single game against Scotland, people are demanding he's sacked. How can he put unproven players on the field when he knows the next loss could cost him his job? Let's say he put Randall, Lawrence, Malins etc out there against Italy. It's now a huge gamble for him. If it turns out they're not international class and England lose as a result, Eddie could be joining the dole queue. Fans can't have it both ways.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Even if we put points up against Italy what does it prove, we should be able to put put the U21's and still comfortably win? God I wish we didn't have them as opponents this week.

Love me a bit of English arrogance!

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

TLDR

You wouldn't like it anyway, it was optimistic.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I do take your point, but I suppose the question is: when does Eddie get a chance to experiment?

vs Italy and Georgia - both of whom we've played in the last three months (and one of whom we're playing this weekend)

vs Georgia the extent of our experimentation was starting Willis (good) and putting Joseph on the wing (why?)

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

vs Italy and Georgia - both of whom we've played in the last three months (and one of whom we're playing this weekend)

vs Georgia the extent of our experimentation was starting Willis (good) and putting Joseph on the wing (why?)

Er... didn't Malins and Lawrence join Willis in getting their first caps in that game? And didn't Marchant, Dunn, Robson and Earl also get substantial time off the bench?

 

[BrokenWing]

How many games do you give someone to play themselves back into form?

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

How many games do you give someone to play themselves back into form?

Good question. I don't know. Eddie obviously feels he does. He's an international rugby coach that has won everything there is to win on the international scene: WC, 6N, Tri-Nations, ANC. I'm willing to trust his judgement. I may be a loon, but I'm willing.

 

[Reiser99]

Good question. I don't know. Eddie obviously feels he does. He's an international rugby coach that has won everything there is to win on the international scene: WC, 6N, Tri-Nations, ANC. I'm willing to trust his judgement. I may be a loon, but I'm willing.

You're a loon

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Er... didn't Malins and Lawrence join Willis in getting their first caps in that game? And didn't Marchant, Dunn, Robson and Earl also get substantial time off the bench?

Robson and Earl weren't really experiments,
I'll give you Malins - though he was only played due to injury to Furbank, and Lawrence (though his treatment post this game overshadows any positives re:EJs treatment of him - Dunn got ****** over by EJ the whole tournament n all)

I was talking starters anyway - getting 15 off the bench in a game that's already gone isn't really the same experience



I just don't understand how you can look at the way the England setup looks atm and be happy?
In the Autumn you were buzzing because we were playing like **** but eeking out wins. Surely you should now be annoyed that we're playing like **** and losing to teams that are also playing poorly?

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Robson and Earl weren't really experiments,
I'll give you Malins - though he was only played due to injury to Furbank, and Lawrence (though his treatment post this game overshadows any positives re:EJs treatment of him - Dunn got ****** over by EJ the whole tournament n all)

I was talking starters anyway - getting 15 off the bench in a game that's already gone isn't really the same experience

So he did experiment.... but not enough?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aye, whatever man

England are the best team in the world, have the best players in the world and are playing the best rugby they've ever played ever.
Every man, 1-23, is there on merit and is really at the top of their game atm.
We let Scotland win, just for a laugh.
We're now going to cruise through every game playing superbly and win the Six Nations with a record points differential.

EJ 4 King

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Aye, whatever man

England are the best team in the world, have the best players in the world and are playing the best rugby they've ever played ever.
Every man, 1-23, is there on merit and is really at the top of their game atm.
We let Scotland win, just for a laugh.
We're now going to cruise through every game playing superbly and win the Six Nations with a record points differential.

EJ 4 King

Sorry, mate, didn't mean to upset you. I don't think England are anywhere near where they could be, I think there are definitely issues, but almost 3 years out from the next WC, I think there are a lot of positives, and everything else is just a problem to be solved. Is Eddie the man to solve it? Yes, I think so.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Aye, whatever man

England are the best team in the world, have the best players in the world and are playing the best rugby they've ever played ever.
Every man, 1-23, is there on merit and is really at the top of their game atm.
We let Scotland win, just for a laugh.
We're now going to cruise through every game playing superbly and win the Six Nations with a record points differential.

EJ 4 King

Arrogant

 

[BrokenWing]

putting Joseph on the wing (why?)

Better than Mike Brown on the wing mind.