[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[TRF_Olyy]

You bet your ass Eddie doesn't give a crap about favourites

You got a vendetta against your ass or something?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

One thing you could say, is that some players look good with certain teams/styles. The great players make a game their own, but they may not be quite as adept in the areas Eddie requires, and the players on the fringes of the squad (genuinely close to it) seem to be in contact with him about work ons and what they need to improve at
It's like if you put any out half behind the Leinster pack, odds are they'll look pretty damn good. Ross Byrne sure does, until all of a sudden the armchair ride goes away

I'd also say Eddie seems a very competitive man, and in my experience of competitive people, winning is paramount. You bet your ass Eddie doesn't give a crap about favourites, he wants to win at all costs, and will be picking what he considers the best players in the country to do so. He considers Ben Youngs better than Ben Spencer, and George Ford better than Marcus Smith, from what he's seen of them in camps

If there is one thing players in the current England squad can definitely not be accused of, it is of being able to adapt. Also there is a difference between trying out players, deciding they aren't good enough and dropping them and simply not looking to begin with. All players work within a system, Saracens players in particular were renowned for their system and not so much their individual players.

I don't doubt that Jones is picking who he thinks is best, the problem is I think he is allowing his judgement of who is best to be clouded by favouritism. When coaches have their favourites it's rarely because they know they are bad but want to keep picking them, it's because they have lost the ability to look at a players performance objectively. Excuses are made for repeated poor performances whilst every error of their competitor is scrutinised to the tiniest detail. Take Billy V, he is the most obvious example of the current player not being judged against the same criteria as the people competing for the spot. Dombrandt was excluded because apparently his workrate isn't good enough and his fitness is poor, then you see Billy V's workrate has been atrocious numerous times with no hint of it being a problem to Jones. Simmonds and the Chiefs players in general are dismissed for only operating within a system yet he fills his squad with Sarries players who operate within a system and also the England team as a whole all play to the England system, there is very little individuality in our play.

That's what people mean by his favourites, he applies a double standard and reasons given for the alternatives not getting a place often apply as much or even more to those already in the squad. If the criteria Jones claims are the actual criteria he uses then many of the players in the squad should not be there.

However this has gone a step above that, he has now accused various English players of simply not being good enough and also hinted that some players are only in because they are the best of a bad bunch. All he's done is **** off everyone both in and out of the squad with such an idiotic statement, especially when it is so clearly false.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Over and above the general comments the full article says that he reckons up to 70% of this squad will go to the RWC.

That's 20 players of the current 28 man squad, so without name checking he's probably just told 8 that he doesn't rate them enough.

He may be right, but that absolutely shouldn't be said,

 

[MikeTheNative]

There's enough young players suddenly deciding that they are Welsh/Scottish/Italian etc. as it is, this surely isn't going to help the situation so he has even less to choose from?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There's enough young players suddenly deciding that they are Welsh/Scottish/Italian etc. as it is, this surely isn't going to help the situation so he has even less to choose from?

Losing three inside centres, a position where we're bloody desperate, to our neighbours because of EJs refusal to look past Farrell isn't ideal
Thank God we capped Lawrence before he signed up to Ancestry.com and found a Romanian Grannie tucked away somewhere

Same with Simmonds and Mercer - sucks for them, but Mercer would definitely be playing for Scotland RN if not for his 2 caps

 

[Jakedood]

Losing three inside centres, a position where we're bloody desperate, to our neighbours because of EJs refusal to look past Farrell isn't ideal
Thank God we capped Lawrence before he signed up to Ancestry.com and found a Romanian Grannie tucked away somewhere

Same with Simmonds and Mercer - sucks for them, but Mercer would definitely be playing for Scotland RN if not for his 2 caps

Would he? I'd say Fagerson looks a good player, and I remember watching Mercer v Japan, and really looked undersized to the point he was struggling to make any ruck clearouts

 

[Jakedood]

However this has gone a step above that, he has now accused various English players of simply not being good enough and also hinted that some players are only in because they are the best of a bad bunch. All he's done is **** off everyone both in and out of the squad with such an idiotic statement, especially when it is so clearly false.

I can see a lot of what you're saying, but at the very least he's giving players a kick up the ass. He's not saying they'll never be good enough but some positions are under threat, and if you cant deal with the fact that as an international, your position isnt a given then you shouldnt be in the squad. Every session should be fighting for your place

Simmonds is the one I'm curious about as he is incredibly powerful for his size, as well as dynamic, and would love to know what workons he's been given, but Mercer really isnt as good as some make him out to be. And in terms of picking from saracens, they may play to a system, but their pack in particular over the years of dominance has rightly earned england representation due to their physicality.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Would he? I'd say Fagerson looks a good player, and I remember watching Mercer v Japan, and really looked undersized to the point he was struggling to make any ruck clearouts

Aye, at the very least he'd be on the bench - he's playing great for Bath atm

 

[Jakedood]

Aye, at the very least he'd be on the bench - he's playing great for Bath atm

I just saw him struggle to move Japanese forwards in the rucks and thought, a little like how some players are great at club level but not enough at international, he's one of them
Bath have him listed at 110kg - does this seem right?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I can see a lot of what you're saying, but at the very least he's giving players a kick up the ass. He's not saying they'll never be good enough but some positions are under threat, and if you cant deal with the fact that as an international, your position isnt a given then you shouldnt be in the squad. Every session should be fighting for your place

Simmonds is the one I'm curious about as he is incredibly powerful for his size, as well as dynamic, and would love to know what workons he's been given, but Mercer really isnt as good as some make him out to be. And in terms of picking from saracens, they may play to a system, but their pack in particular over the years of dominance has rightly earned england representation due to their physicality.

Exeter's pack have also had dominance yet were frequently omitted. Also from that you could argue that Farrell was given the biggest armchair ride in all of Europe.

As I said, we have key positions in which Jones has just flat out refused to even contemplate alternatives. I genuinely do not know who our 2nd choice 12 is, our 2nd choice 9 is likely Robson yet how much game time has he had? The 12's we have produced Jones simply hasn't looked at and the 9 situation has been a problem for 4 years if not longer, a situation he has actually made even worse than it was originally by his refusal to contemplate using Care any more.

He has an ideal team in his head and it seems flat out refuses to look beyond that ideal. He then whinges that the premiership doesn't have exactly the sort of players he is looking for. He should look at the players available and build a team accordingly, not come up with a team and then fudge it where the players aren't available. He has more scope to be rigid with his selection with England than any other side due to the sheer number of players available yet he is still being too rigid even for out larger player pool.

As for Mercer, I can't even remember the last time Billy V actually cleared out a ruck.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

.

I can see a lot of what you're saying, but at the very least he's giving players a kick up the ass. He's not saying they'll never be good enough but some positions are under threat, and if you cant deal with the fact that as an international, your position isnt a given then you shouldnt be in the squad. Every session should be fighting for your place.

Correct.

Except that clearly isn't what happens.

 

[Wendigo7]

Let's also get the comments straight.

He pretty much admitted if Louis Rees-Zammit was available for England he probably wouldn't pick him because he thinks his overall game is too poor.

Argh.

 

[ncurd]

Let's also get the comments straight.

He pretty much admitted if Louis Rees-Zammit was available for England he probably wouldn't pick him because he thinks his overall game is too poor.

Argh.

I wouldn't pick LRZ as well unless both Watson and May were injured. Talented lad no doubt but we have some pretty good established wings he very unlikely wouldn't of pushed past just playing domestically.

 

[Jakedood]

Let's also get the comments straight.

He pretty much admitted if Louis Rees-Zammit was available for England he probably wouldn't pick him because he thinks his overall game is too poor.

Argh.

He also inquired if he'd be available to qualify for England under residency rules, while knowing the answer was likely a no

 

[Jakedood]

.

Correct.

Except that clearly isn't what happens.

Sorry to be rude, I dont mean this in a harsh way

But how can you possibly know this from the training camps England set up? If you dont look good in training you wont get picked, and tbh making guys earn their way in over showing consistent good play rather than flash in the pan form is just right. Remember the likes of Freddie Burns being called to play for England?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Let's also get the comments straight.

He pretty much admitted if Louis Rees-Zammit was available for England he probably wouldn't pick him because he thinks his overall game is too poor.

Argh.

To be fair, the main reason why Pivac picked him was coz Jon Davies got injured just before the Ireland game and Adams broke Covid rules. If neither of those things happened I doubt he would've had any minutes at all to be honest. Sometimes you've just got to take a punt

 

[Wendigo7]

To be fair, the main reason why Pivac picked him was coz Jon Davies got injured just before the Ireland game and Adams broke Covid rules. If neither of those things happened I doubt he would've had any minutes at all to be honest. Sometimes you've just got to take a punt

Oh I don't doubt, but Wales blood youngsters on mass and slowly build a team and a cohesive one over time at that.

England make it very hard for youngsters to come in.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Oh I don't doubt, but Wales blood youngsters on mass and slowly build a team and a cohesive one over time at that.

England make it very hard for youngsters to come in.

Yeah I hear ya, it's a lot harder for England, though, as you have so much depth compared to us. Jones could be doing a lot better though for sure.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Sorry to be rude, I dont mean this in a harsh way

But how can you possibly know this from the training camps England set up? If you dont look good in training you wont get picked, and tbh making guys earn their way in over showing consistent good play rather than flash in the pan form is just right. Remember the likes of Freddie Burns being called to play for England?

We have a number of players who don't perform consistently and yet keep their places.

Not calling for flavour of the month. The obvious example is at 8. Binny's played like a drain for ages. And yet we don't even try an alternative proper 8 (we'll ignore Curry). Simmonds isn't a flash in the pan, he's done it week in week out for Chiefs for years adding to his game. But neither he nor anyone else gets a look in.

Daly's another. We now have Malins to challenge, Watson's better and Brown was dispensed with prematurely. But Daly's kept the shirt despite often being a liability there.

And even if you don't think these players and Youngs etc need permanently replacing their form has been such that they'd have benefited from the odd kick up the arse with some quality bench time.

I'm all for continuity and experience. But players also have to show form.

I do think Lord Beefy was on to something though when he said the Eng camp didn't seem a happy one. Although like the rest of us he's an outsider looking in without the full story.

 

[Which Tyler]

Would he? I'd say Fagerson looks a good player, and I remember watching Mercer v Japan, and really looked undersized to the point he was struggling to make any ruck clearouts

Mercer regularly keeps Faletau on the bench - by merit.
When he broke through he believed his own hype, and was underpowered to where he though he was - but that's simply not the case anymore.

What I did notice against Exeter (for the first time) is that he's "slow" to get back into the defensive line after making a tackle or being rucked out. It's something that Eddie is really hot on, and was particularly shown by playing alongside Dunn.
After making a tackle, Dunn is fighting to get back into the line, reay for a pick and go; Mercer (and most players) saunters back and seems happy enough to let a quick phase go past him. It's not lazy, it's just normal play for most backrowers; but we know that it's a key stat that Eddie sees as very high importance. It's the only reason I can think of (beyond personality, which we can't tell as fans) that Eddie discarded him so quickly.