[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[Jakedood]

We have a number of players who don't perform consistently and yet keep their places.

Not calling for flavour of the month. The obvious example is at 8. Binny's played like a drain for ages. And yet we don't even try an alternative proper 8 (we'll ignore Curry). Simmonds isn't a flash in the pan, he's done it week in week out for Chiefs for years adding to his game. But neither he nor anyone else gets a look in.

Daly's another. We now have Malins to challenge, Watson's better and Brown was dispensed with prematurely. But Daly's kept the shirt despite often being a liability there.

And even if you don't think these players and Youngs etc need permanently replacing their form has been such that they'd have benefited from the odd kick up the arse with some quality bench time.

I'm all for continuity and experience. But players also have to show form.

I do think Lord Beefy was on to something though when he said the Eng camp didn't seem a happy one. Although like the rest of us he's an outsider looking in without the full story.

have more issue with that in that I've heard absolutely nothing from camp about it being unhappy, other than that they weren't smiling and laughing when they lost (I think he made the comment post scotland game?)

It is possible, and I'm not saying I can know for sure, to see Simmonds as a cracking club player who doesnt quite have the same impact when brought into camps against bigger, smarter players. Not saying it's true, but it may be. I say this knowing that EJ will have some reasons, as for all intents and purposes he has a reputation with ex players working under him of being ruthless and jettisoning them after he feels they've served their purpose
Daly has been poor particularly last few games, but Watson has been injured for spells, and been so good on the wing. If Cokanasiga or some similar had shown potential there, we may have seen Watson at full back, but no one is really tearing up trees at wing for England at the moment
Youngs has been poor, but EJ seems to have a style of 9 that he likes, and I'd imagine if fit, Randall seems more like that than Robson. Robson has looked good in flashes, but his passing isnt that up tempo
Binny hasnt been playing amazing, but Binny on form is a top clas player, and he needs to work hard, maybe lose some KG's so he can be more dynamic (Force - Mass x Velocity after all) but other than Simmonds, you'd say a lot of the 8's have been up and down form wise, from the likes of Ewers and Armand etc

I'm not saying EJ has it totally right, I have no clue what goes on in camp either. What i do have issue with though is people insinuating that he has no idea at all of what's going on, when in fact as a coach who seems intent on staying ahead of trends in world rugby, I'd imagine he's constantly critiquing himself as a coach, and there will be reasons the general public dont know of for his selections. I would say this is a fair assumption?

 

[Jakedood]

Mercer regularly keeps Faletau on the bench - by merit.
When he broke through he believed his own hype, and was underpowered to where he though he was - but that's simply not the case anymore.
What I did notice against Exeter (for the first time) is that he's slow to get back into the defensive line after making a tackle or being rucked out. It's something that Eddie is really hot on, and was particularly shown by playing alongside Dunn.
After making a tackle, Dunn is fighting to get back into the line, reay for a pick and go; Mercer (and most players) saunters back and seems happy enough to let a quick phase go past him. It's not lazy, it's just normal play for most backrowers; but we know that it's a key stat that Eddie sees as very high importance. It's the only reason I can think of (beyond personality, which we can't tell as fans) that Eddie discarded him so quickly.

Having not seen much of him, I'll take your point. Last i saw him was in 2018 so if he's come on leaps and bounds then fair play to him

 

[Which Tyler]

Having not seen much of him, I'll take your point. Last i saw him was in 2018 so if he's come on leaps and bounds then fair play to him

Yep, fair enough if you're judging him from then - like all young players, 3 years will make a huge difference.


IMO, he's our best #8 at the moment - Billy has been out of form for a couple of years; Simmonds requires a very different set-up and balance in the pack - which would require replacing at least one, probably both of Curry and Underhill - realistically, that's who he's competing with, not Billy; Dombrandt is less ready now than Mercer was 3 years ago; Hughes was tried and failed.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Once thing Eddie doesn't seem to acknowledge, despite always saying he gives players work ons, is that they can improve over time
3yrs is a long time - especially when Mercer was in the u20s when he was capped,
Simmonds hasn't had a cap in three years as well - even if EJ wasn't keen on where he was at at that point he seems to be holding it against him still now, despite being significantly better now

 

[Jakedood]

Yep, fair enough if you're judging him from then - like all young players, 3 years will make a huge difference.


IMO, he's our best #8 at the moment - Billy has been out of form for a couple of years; Simmonds requires a very different set-up and balance in the pack - which would require replacing at least one, probably both of Curry and Underhill - realistically, that's who he's competing with, not Billy; Dombrandt is less ready now than Mercer was 3 years ago; Hughes was tried and failed.

What would you say he's most improved since then?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm not saying EJ has it totally right, I have no clue what goes on in camp either. What i do have issue with though is people insinuating that he has no idea at all of what's going on, when in fact as a coach who seems intent on staying ahead of trends in world rugby, I'd imagine he's constantly critiquing himself as a coach, and there will be reasons the general public dont know of for his selections. I would say this is a fair assumption?

Of course Jones will have his own reasons - and the buck stops with him. He says a lot in public some of which is palpable nonsense - initially we all gave him the benefit of him trying to deflect from the players, but increasingly it also looks like muddled thinking.

No-one's doubting his work ethic or wish to keep improving. What we do know though is that the performance graph has been downward for a while and is now being joined by the results graph. This is fully Jones team so a different scenario from 2017/18.

In my line of work we often work with turnaround professionals - people whose skills are to come, in fix big problems and quickly move on to the next one. Firefighters if you will. They get a big buzz from the drama and pressure but get very bored once that's done and it becomes business as usual. The long term's not their skill set - they're ruthlessly all about quick results and Jones has always struck me as having that mindset. Will Greenwood for one was worried about that at outset. Only time will tell but my instinct is that he's right.

 

[MarkyH]

For Monday fun. England, 2021 summer tour, with certain presumptions about the Lions

Genge
LCD
Stuart
Isikwe
Hill
Dombrandt
B Curry
Simmonds

Randall
Smith
Odogwu
Lawrence
Marchant
Thorley
Malins

Obano
Barbeary
Williams
Martin
Earl
Maunder/Mitchell
Simmonds
Coka

Not full of massive carriers but that 11 to14 is rapid as, and not exactly lacking power

I'd love to see that against France tbf. Somes a bit raw but at least we would have something fun. Maybe not with EJ on board, i've lost my faith

 

[MarkyH]

Squad made up of Ted Hill, Hayes, Mercer, Sam and Luke James. Me.

Basically I want the Saxons back, I loved watching Saxons games on a Friday before a 6N game

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If Barbeary can get back from his injury sooner rather than later then I'd want a look at him in the backrow over the summer
Dombrandt, for me, is 8 or nothing (though I think he's covered lock in the past?) - wouldn't have him at 6, so stick him on the bench with Barbeary at 6
Ted Hill seems quite injury prone atm (think I heard he's pulled out the last two Wuss games on the day of?) however if he's fit then needs to be there - great player, and is Wuss captain atm so will add to the leadership group


I think we really need to start capping some wingers - as good as Watson and May are they're both injury prone, May is getting to the tail end of a winger's prime, and we've not really looked at who's behind.
I'm a big fan of Thorley but he's got a bit of Gloucester stink on him atm (much like May) plus he seems to be on EJ's never-play-him list

I wanna see guys like Radwan, Hassell-Collins etc. get involved over the summer

 

[MarkyH]

Good shouts, I was actually struggling with wingers and hookers. Hence Barbeary being there. I think the back 3 are pretty flexible. Put Earl at 7, Curry at 6 and Dombrandt at 8.

I dunno, just want something to look forward to that isn't BV, Youngs and Farrell at 8, 9, 10

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I was actually struggling with wingers and hookers

Dunn and Cruse are both worth a look IMO - Cruse has been tearing up trees for Wasps the last season or two
Capon getting more game time at Bristol recently, too - he kept Barbeary out of the England u20s side

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

If Barbeary can get back from his injury sooner rather than later then I'd want a look at him in the backrow over the summer
Dombrandt, for me, is 8 or nothing (though I think he's covered lock in the past?) - wouldn't have him at 6, so stick him on the bench with Barbeary at 6
Ted Hill seems quite injury prone atm (think I heard he's pulled out the last two Wuss games on the day of?) however if he's fit then needs to be there - great player, and is Wuss captain atm so will add to the leadership group


I think we really need to start capping some wingers - as good as Watson and May are they're both injury prone, May is getting to the tail end of a winger's prime, and we've not really looked at who's behind.
I'm a big fan of Thorley but he's got a bit of Gloucester stink on him atm (much like May) plus he seems to be on EJ's never-play-him list

I wanna see guys like Radwan, Hassell-Collins etc. get involved over the summer

Dombrandt was a lock at uni and signed for Quins as one but I can't recall seeing him there for us

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Dombrandt was a lock at uni and signed for Quins as one but I can't recall seeing him there for us

Probably what I'm thinking of then - I can't recall ever seeing him there, as you said, but I had him associated with the position in my head

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

have more issue with that in that I've heard absolutely nothing from camp about it being unhappy, other than that they weren't smiling and laughing when they lost (I think he made the comment post scotland game?)

It is possible, and I'm not saying I can know for sure, to see Simmonds as a cracking club player who doesnt quite have the same impact when brought into camps against bigger, smarter players. Not saying it's true, but it may be. I say this knowing that EJ will have some reasons, as for all intents and purposes he has a reputation with ex players working under him of being ruthless and jettisoning them after he feels they've served their purpose
Daly has been poor particularly last few games, but Watson has been injured for spells, and been so good on the wing. If Cokanasiga or some similar had shown potential there, we may have seen Watson at full back, but no one is really tearing up trees at wing for England at the moment
Youngs has been poor, but EJ seems to have a style of 9 that he likes, and I'd imagine if fit, Randall seems more like that than Robson. Robson has looked good in flashes, but his passing isnt that up tempo
Binny hasnt been playing amazing, but Binny on form is a top clas player, and he needs to work hard, maybe lose some KG's so he can be more dynamic (Force - Mass x Velocity after all) but other than Simmonds, you'd say a lot of the 8's have been up and down form wise, from the likes of Ewers and Armand etc

I'm not saying EJ has it totally right, I have no clue what goes on in camp either. What i do have issue with though is people insinuating that he has no idea at all of what's going on, when in fact as a coach who seems intent on staying ahead of trends in world rugby, I'd imagine he's constantly critiquing himself as a coach, and there will be reasons the general public dont know of for his selections. I would say this is a fair assumption?

The thing is, players like Simmonds and Mercer DO play against these "bigger, smarter players" week in and week out in the prem. Billy V has not outplayed his opposite number at club level in years and certainly not at international level. Hell Simmonds was in a side that won the premiership and European cup and leads of try scoring. He was joint 2nd last year and could set a new record this year, you don't do that if you aren't able to make an impact. It's not even like he is a show pony staying away from traffic to achieve this, his drives over the line from close distance and pick and goes from the back of a set piece are more effective than Billy V's, even though that is supposed to be Billy V's selling point. The thing he doesn't do is blindly run at brick walls like Billy V does, he is, dare I say it, more intelligent than him and hits gaps to make more ground. Simmonds plays like a well rounded rugby player, Billy V plays like the kid that is bigger than everyone else and was just about big enough to continue playing like that at senior level.

Youngs is outplayed frequently at 9 as is Daly at 15 at club level. If you aren't even the best at club level how can you be the best at international level? Yes some great club players don't make it internationally but it's much more normal for players performing poorly at club level to continue to perform poorly internationally than players who are great at club level to perform poorly at international level.

On the flip side the likes of Curry, Underhill, Itoje, LCD, May etc are rarely outperformed at club level and are consistent throughout. Jones has a bunch of players who aren't performing at any level and is sticking with them because the players who are beating them at club level apparently won't be able to continue doing better at international level. It makes no sense.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Dombrandt was a lock at uni and signed for Quins as one but I can't recall seeing him there for us

yeah, pretty sure he only played lock for Wales U20s

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Mercer regularly keeps Faletau on the bench - by merit.
When he broke through he believed his own hype, and was underpowered to where he though he was - but that's simply not the case anymore.

What I did notice against Exeter (for the first time) is that he's "slow" to get back into the defensive line after making a tackle or being rucked out. It's something that Eddie is really hot on, and was particularly shown by playing alongside Dunn.
After making a tackle, Dunn is fighting to get back into the line, reay for a pick and go; Mercer (and most players) saunters back and seems happy enough to let a quick phase go past him. It's not lazy, it's just normal play for most backrowers; but we know that it's a key stat that Eddie sees as very high importance. It's the only reason I can think of (beyond personality, which we can't tell as fans) that Eddie discarded him so quickly.

While Billy doesn't even make a tackle and just walks around the pitch. Double standards.

 

[MikeTheNative]

While Billy doesn't even make a tackle and just walks around the pitch. Double standards.

If he hits you it's pretty hard but he does seem to miss a few tackles.

 

[Jakedood]

The thing is, players like Simmonds and Mercer DO play against these "bigger, smarter players" week in and week out in the prem. Billy V has not outplayed his opposite number at club level in years and certainly not at international level. Hell Simmonds was in a side that won the premiership and European cup and leads of try scoring. You don't do that if you aren't able to make an impact. His drives over the line form close distance and pick and goes from the back of a set piece are more effective than Billy V's, even though that is supposed to be Billy V's selling point.

Youngs is outplayed frequently at 9 as is Daly at 15 at club level. If you aren't even the best at club level how can you be the best at international level? Yes some great club players don't make it internationally but it's much more normal for players performing poorly at club level to continue to perform poorly internationally than players who are great at club level to perform poorly at international level.

On the flip side the likes of Curry, Underhill, Itoje, LCD, May etc are rarely outperformed at club level and are consistent throughout. Jones has a bunch of players who aren't performing at any level and is sticking with them because the players who are beating them at club level apparently won't be able to continue doing better at international level. It makes no sense.

This i can get behind
I know when Ulster have played Saracens, in the past we have been absolutely bulldozed, though tbf that also happened v the leinster B team on saturday, so maybe not saying much.
I'd say the exeter pick and go game relies on beating the defense round the corner more so, to get a soft shoulder, which you might get less of in international rugby? For him anyway, Exeter have a massive pack so that also helps
I cant really get why Simmonds isnt in the squad, i do think he's torn up trees and would be interesting to see him in the England fold. Is he light years ahead of Ben Earl, or would they stylistically be similar
I dont think Daly should be starting 15 anymore, especially with the vast number of playmakers in the England squad, a strike runner could be lethal bringing the ball back, if they had a half solid boot to go with it
I'm really just arguing from the point that Eddie will have seen elements that he rates highly for each position in which the incumbents are better, hence why they're incumbents.
Cant argue that a Billy on top form is a lethal weapon, but i do think he needs to be a lot better at looking after his own fitness levels and weight. Extended breaks always seem to have him coming back over sized, and if he lacks the self motivation there, thats not good

 

[MarkyH]

Dunn and Cruse are both worth a look IMO - Cruse has been tearing up trees for Wasps the last season or two
Capon getting more game time at Bristol recently, too - he kept Barbeary out of the England u20s side

Do we think Thacker is still on the radar? Despite his size etc, even just as a 'summer tour' player ?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

There is nothing to say Billy V will ever be in form again though. We have to let players get into form at their club. The fact billy is the second best 8 on the pitch in most club matches should speak volumes to Jones but it doesn't.