[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[Vieux Talonneur]

IF the summer tour of USA and Canada still goes ahead (which is probably unlikely) it would be interesting to see what squad went...

Absolutely.

But it would only give us a good idea of who isn't ready. Which is important, but not as crucial as finding out who is.

Anyone who shines, well it was only Canada / USA. And a Sco probably shorn of their Lions. Doesn't really give clues about whether newcomers have the potential to stack up against the big beasts that we'd need to take down in the 23 RWC which I'm pretty sure is Jones sole focus.

So it's either no tour or a learn little tour. Then it's into the AIs (and less than 2 yrs to RWC). Are we likely to see much new blood vs Aus and RSA? Probably not although we might against TBC.

 

[Jashay]

Yeah, but that's how the process goes, isn't it? You have a group of players you think are worth a look; some won't make the cut, some might come good with more time, some look like decent prospects.

Maybe we won't learn a lot, but we'll learn something, assuming Jones actually picks any new players.

Jones also seems perfectly happy to throw people in to hard matches if he thinks they're up to it; after the Argentina tour in 2017 Tom Curry's next matches were 4x South Africa, and Underhill's was Australia. Kyle Sinckler's first was South Africa in Nov 2016, in the same game that Daly made his first start (6th cap).

That's not to say that I wouldn't have liked to see more experimentation in the ANC or this 6N, but I'm not ready to write off the whole year just yet!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah, but that's how the process goes, isn't it? You have a group of players you think are worth a look; some won't make the cut, some might come good with more time, some look like decent prospects.

Maybe we won't learn a lot, but we'll learn something, assuming Jones actually picks any new players.

Jones also seems perfectly happy to throw people in to hard matches if he thinks they're up to it; after the Argentina tour in 2017 Tom Curry's next matches were 4x South Africa, and Underhill's was Australia. Kyle Sinckler's first was South Africa in Nov 2016, in the same game that Daly made his first start (6th cap).

That's not to say that I wouldn't have liked to see more experimentation in the ANC or this 6N, but I'm not ready to write off the whole year just yet!

Yep, but I just don't think that Jones is looking at a time horizon beyond RWC 23 which doesn't give any newcomers much chance to be turned into fully functioning streetwise internationals by then. Esp given the need to make changes in the starting XV / for incumbents to be pushed.

 

[klitarris]

IF the summer tour of USA and Canada still goes ahead (which is probably unlikely) it would be interesting to see what squad went...

My worry is that because the Sarries guys will be low on match time they will go (if they're not with the Lions) on the tour, removing the opportunity to try out some of the promising new players.

 

[klitarris]

Yep, but I just don't think that Jones is looking at a time horizon beyond RWC 23 which doesn't give any newcomers much chance to be turned into fully functioning streetwise internationals by then. Esp given the need to make changes in the starting XV / for incumbents to be pushed.

As Jashay says, that's exactly how the process goes, and it is far more obvious with Jones than with other coaches that this is his plan. Curry and Underhill in particular, but other now established players including Genge, Wilson, LCD all pretty much started their England careers on that tour. Very few if any of the new backs seen on that tour are now established players, which is a concern. Looking at where we are at the moment, you'd guess that maybe it might be the other way round this time.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

As Jashay says, that's exactly how the process goes, and it is far more obvious with Jones than with other coaches that this is his plan. Curry and Underhill in particular, but other now established players including Genge, Wilson, LCD all pretty much started their England careers on that tour. Very few if any of the new backs seen on that tour are now established players, which is a concern. Looking at where we are at the moment, you'd guess that maybe it might be the other way round this time.

LCD didn't go on that tour; had to pull out through injury. Singleton sat on the bench for the entirety of both tests.

 

[klitarris]

LCD didn't go on that tour; had to pull out through injury. Singleton sat on the bench for the entirety of both tests.

Goes to show I shouldn't believe everything I read on wiki!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah, but that's how the process goes, isn't it? You have a group of players you think are worth a look; some won't make the cut, some might come good with more time, some look like decent prospects.

Maybe we won't learn a lot, but we'll learn something, assuming Jones actually picks any new players.

Jones also seems perfectly happy to throw people in to hard matches if he thinks they're up to it; after the Argentina tour in 2017 Tom Curry's next matches were 4x South Africa, and Underhill's was Australia. Kyle Sinckler's first was South Africa in Nov 2016, in the same game that Daly made his first start (6th cap).

That's not to say that I wouldn't have liked to see more experimentation in the ANC or this 6N, but I'm not ready to write off the whole year just yet!

Yes Sinckler debuted against the Boks....for a whole 9 minutes.

He didn't wear the 3 shirt until his 13th cap, nearly 18 months after debut. And that's the point. Players need a reasonable of game time so they can find their international feet and coaches can work out if they're genuinely up to it. For the most part players are fed in pretty conservatively now against lower tier opposition or a few minutes off the bench. And no matter their potential most are more effective after 25 caps than 5.

Unless his hand is forced I don't think Jones has any intention of shaking up the established order pre RWC. He may have a grand plan in which case I will apologise profusely when he brings Bill home, but I see some depressingly familiar patterns.

 

[ncurd]

Yes Sinckler debuted against the Boks....for a whole 9 minutes.

For and EJ first cap from the bench that's the equivalent of 18 caps worth of experience!

 

[Rinkadink]

Attwood's always been a big unit with a bit of an edge, the kind of aggression you can't teach. But he's also evolved his game at Bristol and is playing some fantastic stuff. Definitely one of the form players in the country. Far worse players have picked up far more caps.

So I propose why not go for his partner in crime, with the same physical stats and similar strengths, the one and only King of The Mead



(Plus he's what, 26/27 and getting better all the time. Just coming back from injury, perfect to partner a more mobile option but also has great hands and link play and a surprising turn of pace)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yep, but I just don't think that Jones is looking at a time horizon beyond RWC 23 which doesn't give any newcomers much chance to be turned into fully functioning streetwise internationals by then. Esp given the need to make changes in the starting XV / for incumbents to be pushed.

Usually I'd be in agreement, but ATM I don't have an issue with focusing on the 23 RWC....so long as it brings changes to the current side

Because we're playing very poorly atm - it'd be different if we were smashing everyone, but with an aging side, and had no idea what to do afterwards (cough cough 2003), but we're struggling a lot atm so we should be looking at who's going to be peaking for '23 not necessarily who's going to be around in '27

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Usually I'd be in agreement, but ATM I don't have an issue with focusing on the 23 RWC....so long as it brings changes to the current side

Because we're playing very poorly atm - it'd be different if we were smashing everyone, but with an aging side, and had no idea what to do afterwards (cough cough 2003), but we're struggling a lot atm so we should be looking at who's going to be peaking for '23 not necessarily who's going to be around in '27

Agreed.

But after this 6N there are only something like 17 tests until we're in World Cup year. By which point our first choice team should be settled, our game plan should be pretty refined and bench / squad players should have some decent experience. 23 should be about fine polishing not developing or uncertainty.

If we're going to see the changes we mostly want to see, they need to be made sooner rather than later to give us the best chance in 23.

 

[TheSaffycen]

10.Simmonds/Smith
12.Devoto
13.Lawrence

I wouldn't mind seeing that on the summer tour.

 

[higgik]

10.Simmonds/Smith
12.Devoto
13.Lawrence

I wouldn't mind seeing that on the summer tour.

With Malins at 15,

 

[TheSaffycen]

With Malins at 15,

Yeah I think it would work well, Odogwu on the wing, you've got a 13/14 with good carrying power. Devoto isn't a poor carrier either, also isn't the worst kicker either.

We could just go mostly Chiefs and have Simmonds, Devoto, Slade, Nowell. Wouldn't be too against it

 

[higgik]

Actually think Nowell is a key piece that is missing from the England team.
None of the backline can give front foot ball easily and Nowell gives that.
Think the Exeter backline would do a great job.
Add in Thorley or Odogwu on other wing and Malins at 15 would give a great set for summer tour, assuming Watson and May are on Lions duty.

 

[BrokenWing]

Do you think Jones has even contemplated what to do if Farrell gets injured?

If all he does mid game is either shunt him in or out a position, what consideration has he given to him not even being there?

 

[BrokenWing]

the one and only King of The Mead

That where you're from?

 

[Rinkadink]

I's no meader but wassonen?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Actually think Nowell is a key piece that is missing from the England team.
None of the backline can give front foot ball easily and Nowell gives that.
Think the Exeter backline would do a great job.
Add in Thorley or Odogwu on other wing and Malins at 15 would give a great set for summer tour, assuming Watson and May are on Lions duty.

Nowell brings something a bit different, but what position? His pace was always a bit of a concern on the wing and injuries won't have helped that. Always a good option to have around though.

I really want Coka to get back to fitness and form too.