[2020 RC/Tri Nations] Round 5: Argentina V New Zealand (28/11/2020)

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I wouldn't say awesome. Not like we posed a threat or anything. Sad, but ultimately true.
The scrum is worrying. Thought we had fixed that. Our attack was non existent, so other than players running backwards passing the ball to the opposition, we should only be able to improve.


You guys have no idea the stirrup the AB Maradona t-shirt caused among Args. People, journalists and politicians are all laying the smack on UAR and pumas because of it.

 

[Ospervat]

Just finished watching the game on replay.

Not surprised at the result given the 10 changes from the starting 15 of 2 weeks ago that put the AB's to the sword.
It also doesn't help that 13 of the 23 have been selected 3 weeks running in high intensity matches and they still have next week to go.
This was always going to be an impossible schedule for the Pumas. It showed in the last 10 minutes conceding 21 points.

Kudos for defending for 70 minutes and only conceding 2 goals.

AB's played with relentless pressure. Typical stuff. Thought they were starting to look a little rattled again at one stage when they couldn't break the Pumas

Pumas also gave up too much possession from knock-ons putting unnecessary pressure on themselves at critical moments and unforced handling errors with untested combinations.

38-0 is not a fair reflection of the Pumas effort. I think a fresher tested side would have run the AB's closer.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I wouldn't say awesome. Not like we posed a threat or anything. Sad, but ultimately true.
The scrum is worrying. Thought we had fixed that. Our attack was non existent, so other than players running backwards passing the ball to the opposition, we should only be able to improve.


You guys have no idea the stirrup the AB Maradona t-shirt caused among Args. People, journalists and politicians are all laying the smack on UAR and pumas because of it.

What do you mean? Is everyone unhappy the abs did it?

 

[Umaga's Witness]

I wouldn't say awesome. Not like we posed a threat or anything. Sad, but ultimately true.
The scrum is worrying. Thought we had fixed that. Our attack was non existent, so other than players running backwards passing the ball to the opposition, we should only be able to improve.


You guys have no idea the stirrup the AB Maradona t-shirt caused among Args. People, journalists and politicians are all laying the smack on UAR and pumas because of it.

I thought the attack showed some promise, there were some really promising moments, and this is test rugby after all where defences are good so you can't expect too much more than a few moments. Sure you can improve but there were signs of improvement over the first few tests I thought, attack-wise. Not accuratebut it was basically a first test.

I think unfortunately the scrum comes down to the players and you have a first choice front row now that isn't as woefully bad as it had been it the second choice guys simply aren't good enough for this level so there is still a weakness there.

obviously the defence wasn't as good this week.

Overall I wouldn't be too disappointed with a performance using your second string props, and chasing the game therefore attempting to attack against the all blacks using a team that basically hadn't played together.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

What do you mean? Is everyone unhappy the abs did it?

Not really. Kinda the opposite. Difficult to explain but i will try.
I think most rugby followers expected exactly that from the All Blacks. They've done it before and they will do it again.
It is a gracious, elegant and thoughtful gesture that fits the moment perfectly and given the silence and attention surrounding the spectacle it puts the spotlight where it has to be. It's perfect.

The problem comes when you compare it with what the pumas did about it. They mentioned him in interviews, posted a few things on social media, said the best way to honour him was on the field and wore black bands on their right arms. What people see, rephrase; what people who don't follow the sport see, is the ceremony of the haka being adjusted just to fit the purpose while the pumas just placed a black scotch tape.
You also have to understand that Argentina is a land of divisions. We try to make everything black and white. If you are grey you are indicisive, luke warm, irrelevant. A wimp. You have to make a stand on anything and everything. And this one is about how rugby vs football. The people vs the elite. The poor vs the rich. They are using this to take jabs at Matera, Ledesma, the pumas in general and UAR. There is a lot of politics behind it.

 

[Oliver Madden]

Loved our dominance in the scrums. When was the last time pumas got given such a scrum lesson?

Its not happened for a long time that's for certain. The Argentine scrum has always been solid and yet yesterday they struggled to secure their own ball.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Like a 5 man overlap and repeatedly cut back inside instead

The all blacks were always known for doing the basics perfectly, this shows how much they've changed

I don't know which play this was but yeah, it's happening a lot. I get that the defence has come up to block off the pass, but you'd usually expect the all blacks to find a way around that. Goodhue cut in once, might have been the one you mentioned, when a slow lob over the top would have sufficed for the try. It's sad to be an ab fan right now, we seem to be the least clinical right now of any time since I started watching 27 years ago.

Its not happened for a long time that's for certain. The Argentine scrum has always been solid and yet yesterday they struggled to secure their own ball.

I'm not sure where you two have been in the last 5 or more years when the Argentinian scrum has been awful, their biggest weakness. Yes in the first decade of the century they were strong, but not in recent times. Their first few tests this year were the exception.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Not really. Kinda the opposite. Difficult to explain but i will try.
I think most rugby followers expected exactly that from the All Blacks. They've done it before and they will do it again.
It is a gracious, elegant and thoughtful gesture that fits the moment perfectly and given the silence and attention surrounding the spectacle it puts the spotlight where it has to be. It's perfect.

The problem comes when you compare it with what the pumas did about it. They mentioned him in interviews, posted a few things on social media, said the best way to honour him was on the field and wore black bands on their right arms. What people see, rephrase; what people who don't follow the sport see, is the ceremony of the haka being adjusted just to fit the pat makes sense, you explained wellurpose while the pumas just placed a black scotch tape.
You also have to understand that Argentina is a land of divisions. We try to make everything black and white. If you are grey you are indicisive, luke warm, irrelevant. A wimp. You have to make a stand on anything and everything. And this one is about how rugby vs football. The people vs the elite. The poor vs the rich. They are using this to take jabs at Matera, Ledesma, the pumas in general and UAR. There is a lot of politics behind it.

That makes sense, you explained well

 

[Bada-Bing!]

 

[Felipe]

I want to congratulate the All Blacks They beat us very fairly.
But not for having played better rugby than us. This is nothing new. They always play better than us. The All Blacks did a huge tribute to Maradona and we did not.
The lack of empathy of the Pumas with the deepest feelings of the popular feeling of the Argentines had its counterpart with the Haka dedicated to Maradona.
Days ago in this same forum some asked how popular rugby was in our country. In what happened this Saturday they have a principle of answer.
In the absence of homage from the pumas underlies what is classist in the rugby environment in Argentina.
The New Zealanders had the popular sensibilities that we didn't.
They beat us by almost 40 points and the crushing defeat they gave us was a fantastic tribute to Maradona.

Thanks All Blacks, we won't forget it.

 

[Felipe]

As you may have noticed, I am very angry with my beloved Pumas.
Anger that I extend to the social group that practices rugby in Argentina and to which I belong.
We are the social group that gave sustenance in my country to the military dictatorships and that supported all the coups d'état against popular governments.
We are the social group that always stood on the side of North American interference against national interests.
However, I always embraced the hope that the love of the shirt could inoculate my social group with some love for the country and its people.
What happened last Saturday made me despair.
How is it possible that in the antipodes of our country the All Blacks have felt what we have not?
To make matters worse, this happens a few months after a scandal where a group of rugby players of privileged class boys ruthlessly murder a disadvantaged class boy in a disco.
Do you want to tell me how we do now in Argentina for rugby to become a popular sport?

 

[mania]

To make matters worse, this happens a few months after a scandal where a group of rugby players of privileged class boys ruthlessly murder a disadvantaged class boy in a disco.

11 arrested after 19-year-old beaten to death by group in Villa Gesell

Parents demand justice after 19-year-old Fernando Báez Sosa dies of injuries sustained in brutal attack by group of rugby players.

www.batimes.com.ar

wow what cowards

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

The lack of empathy of the Pumas with the deepest feelings of the popular feeling of the Argentines

In what parallel universe are you the judge, jury, and executioner of other people's empathy?
And it'd be nice if you could stop saying "we" when it comes to political and social things about Argentina. Pretty sure I never voted you to represent me. For the team and how they played sure, it's an euphemism, but for this? jesus christ come back down to reality.

Their comments, mentions during press conferences and interviews, and black armbands weren't enough for you? That's your call.
Watch Matera's interview after the first game and come talk to me about empathy.

11 arrested after 19-year-old beaten to death by group in Villa Gesell

Parents demand justice after 19-year-old Fernando Báez Sosa dies of injuries sustained in brutal attack by group of rugby players.

www.batimes.com.ar

wow what cowards

Appalling. Till corona kicked in they were the only subject people talked about.

A not so minor comment not about this particular case but regarding how news portrayals come across when it comes to rugby in Argentina.
If anyone gets into a fight, it gets big enough in order to become newsworthy, if anyone involved plays rugby, the headline will be "rugbiers do xyz". Doesn't happen with football, doesn't happen with basketball, doesnt happen with volley, doesn't happen with any other team sport.


Two big plot twists.
1) Full pumas squad have recorded a video apologizing. Response from what i've seen has been mostly "too little too late".
2) Because of all of the above, people have been fine combing every single pumas' social media post ever made and some very bad things have appeared, in particular from Matera and Petti. Terrible stuff. Discriminatory stuff that is just inexcusable. It is from 2011-2013. It is terrible.

This is something i don't get about UAR. In my line of work, the split-second someone in any company, NGO, government, the multilateral institution goes from being a regular employee to a person with exposure, one of the first things they do is they check with her/him his online presence, particularly his social media postings, likes, etc. The rule of thumb is, if it's long enough, just delete everything just in case, create a new account and go from there. The rationale is that bad things can come back to haunt you and the price tends to be quite high, while good things won't add much, so it's a no brainer.
I cannot believe no one at UAR took the time to check this for the bloody captain of the team.

I can even understand if this is something along the lines of Folau. This is imo worse. I have no idea how this will end. I wouldn't take him retiring from the pumas off the table.

 

[Felipe]

Cruz del Sur

Days ago I said that we needed the help of the great nations to continue progressing in rugby.
What happened on Saturday reveals that we too have to help ourselves if we really want to socially expand rugby in our country.
And we will not achieve it by hiding the problems as you do.
Our forum friends are not idiots and they feel that something smells very ugly..
They see that the All Blacks, who are not Argentine and whose national sport is not football, pay homage to Maradona.
Our players hang a black duct tape around their arms in a hurry.
You ask me if that black tape seems little homage to me? I don't know if yours is a joke.
The All Blacks who have something else to do in their lives than think about our problems took the time to imagine a tribute and to have Maradona's name engraved on a T-shirt. During the Haka, they break a protocol that is sacred to them, they cross the middle of the playing field and bring us Maradona's black shirt. Our players don't even deign to pick it up and thank the gesture.
A shame.
We do not pretend to be Jesus Christ to know what political position we have in the world of rugby. You can hide reality if you want but one thing is for sure. See how the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants of Villa Fiorito vote where Maradona was born. Then look at how the overwhelming majority of those of us who belong to the social group that play rugby vote and the conclusion is more than evident: they are two worlds that vote in the antipodes and whose political positions were always opposite.
Let's not fool our friends here in the forum. There is no political manipulation of these events. They are simply revealing of a class contempt that slows the development of our sport.
And if I bring up this topic, it is not to talk about politics but about rugby.
Class contempt in the world of rugby in Argentina has an impact on rugby.
Ignoring it is not doing rugby a favor.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

im going to just give the Argie players some credit here, black armband is pretty normal and we've done the same thing when one of our great names has passed, its pretty normal (where I come from) for others (in this case the ABs) to do something for the ones grieving (Argentina) rather than the ones grieving to do something for themselves

The AB's also have the luxury of the Haka as an opportunity to do something like this and have done on other occasions so not something they just thought up on the spot

finally, there isnt a lot more the argies could have done unless im missing something obvious

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

You ask me if that black tape seems little homage to me? I don't know if yours is a joke.

If you don't know just ask. Happy to help you with your shortcomings.
It's not a joke. When i watch the national rugby team my main concern is not how they honour a person for his achievements in another sport. Actually quite the opposite. I want politics as far away as possible.
And if you dont like it, change the bloody channel.

During the Haka, they break a protocol that is sacred to them, they cross the middle of the playing field and bring us Maradona's black shirt.

This pretty much uncovers your ignorance on the subject. "break protocol". ffs
They've done it a few times before, last one i recall was when the maori's visited munster after Anthony Foley passed away, 2015 or 2016 if i'm not mistaken. But hey, after the display of knowledge (or lack thereof) you've shown above you probably have to google to know who Foley was.

And if you knew your history about rugby, you would know that just like last weekend, Munster players did not pick up the all-black jersey either, but unlike last weekend, it was a non-issue.

But let's keep it simple. Since i consider you a charlatan who likes to shift the blame, knows little or nothing about the game and likes to generalize his personal anecotes and opinions to 44 millions people, why dont we just ignore each other's posts. Definitely a win for me.
Chau.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

it doesn't feel right agreeing with @Cruz_del_Sur so i'll add the only thing I think the players could have done was actually turn up to play

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

black armband is pretty normal and we've done the same thing when one of our great names has passed

That and a 1 min of silence before game stars is the standard in the most popular sport on the planet. Never heard anyone complain about that. But apparently we've got the worlds best empathy sommeliers back home where your conduct is measured by how they deem you should have honored someone else.

This has triggered a witchhunt against the pumas of biblical proportions. Matera and Petti have deleted their soc media accounts and you've got government officials asking for their heads to UAR. Newspapers, talk shows, the lot, talking about them.
Their minds are nowhere even remotely close to the game against Australia.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

it doesn't feel right agreeing with @Cruz_del_Sur so i'll add the only thing I think the players could have done was actually turn up to play

Funny you mention that, because they said before the game in a recorded public conference, that exactly that was the best way to honor him.

Unfortunately, their actions and intentions are not the only things that affect the result. The other team plays too and the other team happens to be the All Blacks.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Were the Pumas supposed to present a Maradona jersey to the All Blacks or something?
What would have been the appropriate response?

Black armbands and/or a minutes silence, as above, is the right response