[2020 RC/Tri Nations] Round 5: Argentina V New Zealand (28/11/2020)

[Leonormous Boozer]

Definitely the tie of the weekend. Rare that I'd say that when there's NH rugby being played but I'm interested to see how NZ react. In 2016 two weeks after we beat them for the first time they played dirty and bullied us, we were a naive team and they managed to injure two of our best players and got over the line, I don't see that working so well this weekend if they try it.

 

[Felipe]

Nah. They owe us nothing and that looks a lot like blame-shifting. And, as far as evidence goes, we reached two WC semis without that career boost and when we did have it, we couldn't even leave the group round.

Yes, they don't owe us anything, but they owe it to themselves to be smart.
If New Zealand, Australia and South Africa let Jaguares down they will shoot each other in the foot. They will eventually kill the Rugby Championship and Argentina will revert to being the Italy of southern Hemisphere it was until not too long ago.
I don't agree with your indicator to measure Argentina's progress: the performance in the 2007 and 2015 World Cups.
2007 was a very special year. We had a generation of unusual gamers who practiced a smart but extremely conservative and limited play pattern. This pattern allowed us to achieve success against teams beyond 5th place in the IRB rankings. Against the first 4 we didn't have any chance. It was a very short term vision. For the TOP4 of the great rugby nations, playing against us was not very stimulating and boring.
The year 2015 was confined to an episodic achievement against Ireland. As a reminder, the Irish came out of a game against France extremely tired with several injuries. Conversely we had benefited from a week of rest. Our true level was seen in the next 2 games where the Australians and South Africans pushed us aside without even sweating.
All that to say that your indicator is not the right one. Since our entry into Super Rugby the pumas have not stopped losing. I agree. But we have to see that our defeats are nothing like our old defeats. We are losing against the giants of the south !!! But we lose by playing them almost on an equal footing. Our game is no longer as conservative and limited as it used to be.
I can assure you that the great nations of the south are much less bored when they face us. We are no longer in their eyes the Italy of the Southern Hemisphere. We are a kind of Scotland. They take much more pleasure in facing us and take meetings more seriously. And finally I will say that we lose by a much tighter margin while playing more daring rugby than in the past. Even when we play unsatisfactorily we are not very far from the score (vs Australian in 2020 and vs France in 2019).
We must analyze trends and not limit ourselves to one-off performances. And unfortunately, without Super Rugby, the trend is to revert to Southern Hemisphere Italy.

 

[Felipe]

yes well the RugbyWorld has been screwing over the pacific islands for much longer.
argentina have had their boost up. the rest is up to argentina. its time to do the same for Samoa, Fiji and Tonga

It seems to me that you are forgetting an important point.
Pacific nations have never reached the semi-finals of the World Cup twice like we have.
On the other hand, they do not have the same history as ours which has among others:
- Defeated Ireland and Wales in the '60s and' 70s.
- Defeated South Africa in 1982
- Defeated Australia in 1979
- Defeated France in 1985
- Drew against the All Blacks in 1985
- Defeated England in 1990
On the other hand, our national team feeds 100% from players born and learned to play rugby in Argentina.
I understand that what I just said doesn't impress a New Zealander in the slightest (who might even be laughing) but it still makes a major difference with the nations of the Pacific.
We have deserved your help and we are the only possibility you have to organize a four-nation tournament that can ultimately be very competitive.
Today we are not up to the big 3 of the south, but by 10 years we have the potential to get closer to you.
Be smart.

 

[mania]

It seems to me that you are forgetting an important point.
Pacific nations have never reached the semi-finals of the World Cup twice like we have.
On the other hand, they do not have the same history as ours which has among others:
- Defeated Ireland and Wales in the '60s and' 70s.
- Defeated South Africa in 1982
- Defeated Australia in 1979
- Defeated France in 1985
- Drew against the All Blacks in 1985
- Defeated England in 1990
On the other hand, our national team feeds 100% from players born and learned to play rugby in Argentina.
I understand that what I just said doesn't impress a New Zealander in the slightest (who might even be laughing) but it still makes a major difference with the nations of the Pacific.
We have deserved your help and we are the only possibility you have to organize a four-nation tournament that can ultimately be very competitive.
Today we are not up to the big 3 of the south, but by 10 years we have the potential to get closer to you.
Be smart.

argentina has had its boost. the experiment worked. now we have to apply this boost to the pasifika teams. Argentina have been given an incredible opportunity. its up to you how you use it. going forward tho its time the pasifika teams got help

 

[Felipe]

argentina has had its boost. the experiment worked. now we have to apply this boost to the pasifika teams. Argentina have been given an incredible opportunity. its up to you how you use it. going forward tho its time the pasifika teams got help

I find it hard to make myself understood.
Rising rugby skills for a nation is not ONE SHOT or magic wand that turns you from Cinderella to princess.
You are telling me:
"OK, we helped Jaguares improve. Now go home and play against teams from Brazil and Paraguay. And as for your national team, we meet up once a year at Eden Park. Good luck ! ".
Do you understand that our future Delguy or Imhof will not be able to progress much against our dear friends from Brazil or Paraguay?
Furthermore, if you want to help Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, the Vanatu Islands or William Cook you can always include them in your Miter Cup. (your 2nd competition). These teams deserve a chance but at the right level. They don't have a Super Rugby level. Jaguares has it.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

don't agree with your indicator to measure Argentina's progress: the performance in the 2007 and 2015 World Cups.

Had you listened to you what UAR's staff said before 2015's WC you would know it was not "my" indicator but the goal they set themselves. They even said they wouldnt judge themselves by 2015's performance as this was a long term plan. Well, the results on the metrics they set themselves were terrible.

2007 was a very special year. We had a generation of unusual gamers who practiced a smart but extremely conservative and limited play pattern. This pattern allowed us to achieve success against teams beyond 5th place in the IRB rankings. Against the first 4 we didn't have any chance.

France and Ireland were #1 and #2 in the six nations both in 2006 and 2007. We were playing in France. Read Irish newspapers before the WC and tell me they were a mediocre team with a straight face.

The year 2015 was confined to an episodic achievement against Ireland. As a reminder, the Irish came out of a game against France extremely tired with several injuries. Conversely we had benefited from a week of rest. Our true level was seen in the next 2 games where the Australians and South Africans pushed us aside without even sweating.

Opening game against the All Blacks in Wembley. At half time we were winning and they had two yellow cards. And i don't like excuses, but we hadn't given an intercept try in all 2015 and we gave two to Australia, one at min 2. They won, fair and square, but the game was closer than what the scoreline suggests.
And mentioning Ireland's bans and injuries without mentioning ours sounds more like cherry-picking than an intellectually honest argument.

All that to say that your indicator is not the right one. Since our entry into Super Rugby the pumas have not stopped losing. I agree. But we have to see that our defeats are nothing like our old defeats. We are losing against the giants of the south !!! But we lose by playing them almost on an equal footing. Our game is no longer as conservative and limited as it used to be.

This is nonsense. It's as if you are immune to facts. Let me refresh your memory. Let's look at the facts. Our performances against opposition, disregarding the "giants of the south" (Oly, i'm gonna your argument for a sec here).

2018 mid year internationals
vs Wales Lost 23-10
vs Wales (II) Lost 30-12
vs Scotland Lost 44-15

2018 end of year internationals
vs Ireland Lost 28-17
vs France Lost 28-13
vs Scotland Lost 14-9

2017 mid year int
vs England Lost 38-34 (note half the english team was playing for the Lions at the time)
vs England Lost 35-25

2017 end of year internationals
vs England Lost 21-8
vs Ireland Lost 28-19


So when you suggest our record is tampered because we were only losing to the "giants of the south" i have to ask myself, what the fvck are you talking about.

We must analyze trends and not limit ourselves to one-off performances.

We should put that next to merriam webster's definition of irony. I would like to know in what parallel universe does the trend support your statements.


Oh my... i completely forgot!!
We did beat Georgia and Italy in 2017.
That changes everything...

 

[mania]

`

I find it hard to make myself understood.
Rising rugby skills for a nation is not ONE SHOT or magic wand that turns you from Cinderella to princess.
You are telling me:
"OK, we helped Jaguares improve. Now go home and play against teams from Brazil and Paraguay. And as for your national team, we meet up once a year at Eden Park. Good luck ! ".
Do you understand that our future Delguy or Imhof will not be able to progress much against our dear friends from Brazil or Paraguay?
Furthermore, if you want to help Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, the Vanatu Islands or William Cook you can always include them in your Miter Cup. (your 2nd competition). These teams deserve a chance but at the right level. They don't have a Super Rugby level. Jaguares has it.

i dont understand why pumas need more help than manu. pumas have been elevated because of super rugby. now its the pacifics turn to get some help. considering that the pacific make up a huge percentage of rugby players around the world its time worldRugby started giving back.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

The Pumas stuff should maybe be taken off to another thread? is there a Mod around anywhere? @TRF_heineken are you the only SH mod?

all i'll say is i definitely want Argentina to do well....but, i think there was some expectations that after given entry to the RC and super rugby there might be more work done back at home, your own national league to grow the sport for example, a country (one poster on a forum, not you @Cruz_del_Sur ) with nearly 10 times the population of NZ and nearly 5 times the GDP asking for more handouts when NZ are scrambling to arrange games and looking to completely rearrange our domestic comp because of COVID...is a bit rough

i only mentioned Nz because i think its pretty well accepted Aussie are already struggling and SA have provided other support to Argentina

Back to the game, i find these times weird, 1945 kickoff (2145 in NZ) seems silly, i thought we'd seen during the pandemic that earlier games got the casual fans along...but 1945 is a bit late to start with...let alone 2145 for one of the countries (and probably the biggest viewing market) competing

maybe a couple of hours make the difference in the Argie viewership

 

[mania]

The Pumas stuff should maybe be taken off to another thread? is there a Mod around anywhere? @TRF_heineken are you the only SH mod?

all i'll say is i definitely want Argentina to do well....but, i think there was some expectations that after given entry to the RC and super rugby there might be more work done back at home, your own national league to grow the sport for example, a country (one poster on a forum, not you @Cruz_del_Sur ) with nearly 10 times the population of NZ and nearly 5 times the GDP asking for more handouts when NZ are scrambling to arrange games and looking to completely rearrange our domestic comp because of COVID...is a bit rough

i only mentioned Nz because i think its pretty well accepted Aussie are already struggling and SA have provided other support to Argentina

Back to the game, i find these times weird, 1945 kickoff (2145 in NZ) seems silly, i thought we'd seen during the pandemic that earlier games got the casual fans along...but 1945 is a bit late to start with...let alone 2145 for one of the countries (and probably the biggest viewing market) competing

maybe a couple of hours make the difference in the Argie viewership

agree. in SRA i went to canes games because it was a friendly time for my kids. it is so nice having arvo games.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Sticking with Jordie on the wing, hope Borden gets more of a run, surprised to see scott barrett straight back on, dudes a liability

 

[mania]

sotutu should be there with ardie at 6. its good to see akira in there. i just hope he pulls his head in and does the dark arts and doesnt seagull. sotutu should be starting ahead of akira tho.
good to see moody and nepo in there. should be a solid scrum. coles throw ins are so accurate at the moment that he has to start.
have to say that its an awesome bench.
still not a fan of mounga and barrett. one of them should be playing off the bench.
less of a fan of TJ at the moment. i reckon he's left for Japan already. he hasnt played well all season.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

sotutu should be there with ardie at 6. its good to see akira in there. i just hope he pulls his head in and does the dark arts and doesnt seagull. sotutu should be starting ahead of akira tho.
good to see moody and nepo in there. should be a solid scrum. coles throw ins are so accurate at the moment that he has to start.
have to say that its an awesome bench.
still not a fan of mounga and barrett. one of them should be playing off the bench.
less of a fan of TJ at the moment. i reckon he's left for Japan already. he hasnt played well all season.

i think we should have Akira at 6 and sotutu at 8, i get the experience argument...but those two guys have played together all year, experience playing together has to be almost as important as test match experience

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I don't know enough about the squad to give commentary on the changes, is that 10 changes and a few debuts?

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Jordie on the wing and Scott barrett starting...Beauden isn't good enough anymore to be pulling those favours, he must have made a long term deal a few years back.

 

[Alex Anghel]

Jordie on the wing and Scott barrett starting...Beauden isn't good enough anymore to be pulling those favours, he must have made a long term deal a few years back.

My blood would boiling if I were a New Zealander...

Having said that, I lost any hope that Foster may straighten the ship, it's clear that he's so stubborn (in a negative way) that he cannot see the forest from the trees. ABs will probably cruise past a mentally and physically depleted Puma side, but sadly the core selection issues will remain.

I am a die hard ABs supporter since early 80s, but I swear that I have come to wish the team lose in order to see Foster sacked. There's so much wasted potential with him on the bench...

 

[Oliver Madden]

Sticking with Jordie on the wing, hope Borden gets more of a run, surprised to see scott barrett straight back on, dudes a liability

View attachment 8904

Jordie Barrett on the wing again!!. The only person who thinks it's a remotely good fit Is Ian Foster. What does Sotutu have to do to get a start?. I would have liked to have seen Reece get a run on the wing. That All Blacks team should beat Argentina but that's not the point. As much as I like Beauden Barrett i seems to me that you either play him at 10 or not at all. Foster doesn't seem to have the guts to make the hard decisions, this Is a very conservative team selection.

 

[Oliver Madden]

I don't know enough about the squad to give commentary on the changes, is that 10 changes and a few debuts?

View attachment 8905

Despite the changes that Argentina team is still full of quality, they've got some serious depth to the squad now.

 

[Felipe]

all i'll say is i definitely want Argentina to do well....but, i think there was some expectations that after given entry to the RC and super rugby there might be more work done back at home, your own national league to grow the sport for example, a country (one poster on a forum, not you @Cruz_del_Sur ) with nearly 10 times the population of NZ and nearly 5 times the GDP asking for more handouts when NZ are scrambling to arrange games and looking to completely rearrange our domestic comp because of COVID...is a bit rough

i only mentioned Nz because i think its pretty well accepted Aussie are already struggling and SA have provided other support to Argentina

You have to see the big picture. There is no reason why the 6 Nations tournament should be more attractive than our Rugby Championship. In Europe very few people watch the Rugby Championship. It's amazing but it's like that.
We have every opportunity to put our competitions in the center of the eyes of rugby fans all over the world.
Without COVID and the dismantling of Super Rugby Argentina could have become a great rugby nation in 5 years. Do you realize what it would mean to have a competition of 4 big nations? A kind of 6 nations without Italy or Scotland and with only excellent teams with a level equivalent to that of England.
We could even have imagined eventually integrating Japan and Fiji. But none of this happens magically or suddenly. We must make a long-term commitment with the nations that we want to develop in competence. It's not about abandoning them halfway.
It's strange that Australians and New Zealanders wake up so late. It's been a long time since Samoa, Tonga and Fiji should have been integrated into their national competitions (to see in which division). Just as South Africa has historically been able to integrate Namibia or Zimbabwe into some of their competitions.
And again I say it. We are not asking you for generosity, but for intelligence. You won't be able to do this on your own. You are just as far from the center of the world as we are, and you are also feeling the effects of their economic might.

 

[Felipe]

I don't know enough about the squad to give commentary on the changes, is that 10 changes and a few debuts?

View attachment 8905

 

[Felipe]

Ledesma will put a well-composed team on the pitch. Ten well-rested players will circle the backbone of the team: Montoya, Petti, Kremer, Matera, Sanchez.
As for the 10 new players, 7 are rather experienced and 3 are young people or players whose talent remains to be confirmed:
- Paulos
- Ezcurra
- Mallia.

If I was Ledesma I would have played this same team without his backbone. I would have somehow "sacrificed" this game in order to maximize our chances in a week against Australia.
I think we are going to tire our best players too much when our chances of success are extremely low.