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[2020 RC/Tri Nations] Round 3: Argentina V New Zealand (14/11/2020)

Argentina are so weird,
How come they can only play well during the Tri/quad nations?
Summer/Autumn internationals they're getting whitewashed at home by B/C sides, world cups they're losing comfortably to tier 1 sides, and then this!
They were far more formidable in the 00s and then peaked excellently in 2015, I think it's just that they've not been good at all otherwise. It'll be interesting to see where they go from here.

Hopefully this is just a flash in the pan, the only team I dislike in world rugby out of pure bitterness.
 
The result is good for SH rugby, already seen a lot of kiwis saying they'll be watching the puma v Aussie game now when they weren't planning on it before
 
What can I say? This result proved once more that the NZRU got it very wrong by appointing Foster as head coach. Put the team you believe that is your "A" one and got beaten by a side that hasn't played an international game in more than a year, what else could be said about it?
 
Argentina are so weird,
How come they can only play well during the Tri/quad nations?
Summer/Autumn internationals they're getting whitewashed at home by B/C sides, world cups they're losing comfortably to tier 1 sides, and then this!
The general comment i hear from non-argentines is that we tend to punch above our weight on WCs. I am inclined to agree.
We've got more semis than Ireland, Scotland and until the last WC we were tied with Wales on that matter, without having to go back to 87.

We just have a terrible record against England. Maybe that's why you think that.
And when i recall most of those WC games (France, Ireland and Scotland in 2007, Scotland in 2011, Ireland 2015) i can't recall a single one where i could say "well, yeah, we got outplayed and got lucky with the win." Not one. I'd have to go back to 1999's WC to support that claim (vs Ireland) and it'd still be a 50/50 in my book.
In 2015, our first game against the ABs we were even winning at half time. We just had a phenomenally bad world cup in 2019. Recency bias maybe?
 
Maybe the players can't get up for "friendlies", and can only find the extra level in an actual tournament environment?

The form they bring to 4N/RWC (to an extent) is nowhere near the dross they shovel when NH tour Argentina/Argentina tour the NH
 
You're changing the tune a bit there. Your words: " world cups they're losing comfortably to tier 1 sides". Plural, as in, i can go back in time a bit.

Then you say you don't wanna go as far as 2007. Fine. 2015, we beat Ireland, the then incumbent 6N winner at the time in the 1/4 finals. And convincingly so.
And i would love to see how you can conclude that after we lost 21-23 to France in our opening game in a match that could have gone either way. We had an appalling first 30 minutes and paid for it, but we dominated the last 50. I don't think anyone who saw that game would say it was a comfortable win.
And the only other tier one team we faced was England, which i already addressed.


I can speculate about our performances in friendlies vs WC. I would say it has a lot to do with travelling and scheduling. Jaguares is virtually the Pumas, so hard to rest players without paying dearly in gameplay. I don't think many players, if any, travelled what a jag/puma player did in say, 2018.
I don't think we lack talent, but we certainly lack depth. And rest. I've heard more than one analyst say we tend to do better in WC years because of that. Again, speculation, but i can see where they are coming from.

I think going with one team to SR has some clear advantages (cohesion, etc.) but some disadvantages too. It is harder to develop players when you have fewer spots from which to gain experience. Thing is, i dont think we could compete with the other franchises if we went there with more than one team.
 
Matera was immense this game. And to think I nearly didn't even bother to get in front of my TV.

This result brings NZ in 3rd on the world rankings dropping below England to 88.17 while Argentina leapfrog Wales and Japan into 8th on 80.31. Not that it means anything- just FYI.

Weirdest thing about this game was to see a team from Argentina out-discipline NZ.
 
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The general comment i hear from non-argentines is that we tend to punch above our weight on WCs. I am inclined to agree.
We've got more semis than Ireland, Scotland and until the last WC we were tied with Wales on that matter, without having to go back to 87.

We just have a terrible record against England. Maybe that's why you think that.
And when i recall most of those WC games (France, Ireland and Scotland in 2007, Scotland in 2011, Ireland 2015) i can't recall a single one where i could say "well, yeah, we got outplayed and got lucky with the win." Not one. I'd have to go back to 1999's WC to support that claim (vs Ireland) and it'd still be a 50/50 in my book.
In 2015, our first game against the ABs we were even winning at half time. We just had a phenomenally bad world cup in 2019. Recency bias maybe?
And you probably shouldn't be so harsh about the last World Cup given you were playing with less men against a good England side after lavinini got sent off, and you could very easily have won the game against France, In Fact should have been awarded a penalty at the end that you could have kicked for the win.

the scrum looked good in this game, if that's not a one off then you might be able to combine the forward might of the early 00s with the flair you've built later on, and the defence we saw in this game.

it puzzles me why the northern hemisphere Discount Argentina so much, but perhaps that is because Argentina plays well against the all blacks but not against northern hemisphere. Since 06 the all blacks average winning margin against Argentina has been less than against Wales or France, and pretty much the same as against Ireland.
 
The result is good for SH rugby, already seen a lot of kiwis saying they'll be watching the puma v Aussie game now when they weren't planning on it before
Yep, and Argies have always been my second team, great to see them finally break their duck against us. Added bonus Fozzie is put under pressure. Shape up or ship out.
 
it puzzles me why the northern hemisphere Discount Argentina so much
It's hard not to when they can't even get a win against the academy sides we send down there
The only NH side they've beaten, home or away, in as long as I cared to scroll back is Italy

But that's exactly my point - why are they so bad against NH sides but then turn it up in the Tri-Nations?
 
It's hard not to when they can't even get a win against the academy sides we send down there
The only NH side they've beaten, home or away, in as long as I cared to scroll back is Italy

But that's exactly my point - why are they so bad against NH sides but then turn it up in the Tri-Nations?
Don't they consistently finish last of the RC? I think if we had a theoretical 7 nations they'd rarely make the top 3. They peak well at RWCs but I'd dispute that they don't get lucky, in 2015 they had a lucky run out imo meeting us with a third of our starting team Injured, I don't think they were better than us that year bar the 80 minutes we played against them and in 2011 Scotland were muck so it wasn't a big achievement beating them. 07 they were legitimately the third best team there.

Definitely better than Italy and Scotland and they've probably been at France's level since 2011 and if they continue that trend they'll be a top 5 team this RWC cycle but bar 07 and 15 I don't think they've been close to that before. They've a real chance to establish themselves off this though.
 
Don't they consistently finish last of the RC? I think if we had a theoretical 7 nations they'd rarely make the top 3. They peak well at RWCs but I'd dispute that they don't get lucky, in 2015 they had a lucky run out imo meeting us with a third of our starting team Injured, I don't think they were better than us that year bar the 80 minutes we played against them and in 2011 Scotland were muck so it wasn't a big achievement beating them. 07 they were legitimately the third best team there.

Definitely better than Italy and Scotland and they've probably been at France's level since 2011 and if they continue that trend they'll be a top 5 team this RWC cycle but bar 07 and 15 I don't think they've been close to that before. They've a real chance to establish themselves off this though.
Yeah, but we're talking about three other teams that if not the top three teams are in the top five in the world
 
When was the last time both SA and Aus were top 5 teams? 2015?
More recently surely, at least 2016, I guess the point is neither are tier two nations or something, both former RWC winners so their always going to be tough games
 
Watched the game on record and Argentina totally deserved to win, they were by far the better team from minute 1 to 80. An unbelievable effort considering they had not played in over a year!. For the first time in ages the Pumas looked horrible to play against, they haven't been like that for years. The All Blacks were really poor, there was no shape to their game at all. Everyone is blaming Foster but to my mind the decline started at the end of Steve Hansen's reign. In the last couple of years any team that has kept hold of the ball well and has not given the AB's turnovers has either ran them close or beaten them.
 
When was the last time both SA and Aus were top 5 teams? 2015?
Using the same rating system that gave Wales the #1 spot going to the world cup.

After 2007's WC, other than England, I've felt comfortable facing any NH side in a WC game. Not that we were favourites, and of course we can lose and probably would have, but I've never felt "****, they are going to tear us a new one" when facing Ire/Wal/Fra, let alone Sco/Ita. I've felt that with RSA, NZ and Aus. There is a reason why the worst of those three has more world cup trophies than all the NH combined.

We are a very temperamental team. It wouldn't take much of a stretch to think that on a good day, our 2019 side (not particularly good by any metric) could beat Wales 2019 (best in the world according to WR's rankings).

We never get a break on TRC. We have no easy games like Italy, an occasional poor Scotland or today's Welsh side (pi). Every single TRC game is an uphill battle for us. I can't recall a single game where we went to the game and an unbiased observed would say: "yeah, Argentina is clearly the favourite here". Not a single one. Couple of 50-50s (out of 43 games today), nothing more.
But we know exactly what he signed up for and what we are trying to accomplish here.

Everything we do, absolutely everything, from TRC to SR has one and only one goal in mind: preparing ourselves to perform at the WC. That is why 2019 was such a catastrophic failure for us. Even before 2015 WC our coaches said the goal was 2019.

And i think we are slowly getting there. 1999 and 2007 were landmark years where we broke the ceiling and got into tier 1, if you will. After that, i think we improved and somehow managed to stay there., The thing is, we did so by facing what have been historically 3 out of the best 4 in the world, so we are, on average, underrated when it comes to ratings given how these are calculated. The next step is to get from being in the bottom half of tier 1 to the top half. It will take time. We know that.

A lot of people compare us to Italy. I don't see it that way. I really don't. I see progress. I see how we've gone from losing every game in TRC to beating every team away from home. I've see us go from not getting our of the group stages in SR to getting to the final and throwing everything but the sink at the eventual champions. Again, it takes time. I see most NH teams trying out new players and resting others when they face Italy. When i look at us i see that we punish that sort of behaviour (you could argue it cost the Lions a SR ***tle, to name one example).

I also think player selection for 2019 was a huge issue (cordero, imhoff, facundo isa, diaz bonilla were not even present). Not talking about a couple of nobodies but 4/5 key players. It is to this day that people still question Ledesma for that.
Next step is probably to gain consistency and in order to do that we need more depth. It shows a lot when you see most of us 1h vs 2h results.

The signal, the key signal this result yielded is the potential we have, which was something we had began to question. We needed this result to stay on course. The rest is hard adding tons of hours of hard work behind it, but we now know, or confirm, that we've got the right ingredients to work with.
Those are there and i believe today we showed them in spades.
 
I was just thinking how many changes will the All Blacks make for the next game?. Definitely at least 5 I would say. The back-row needs altering. Sotutu and Akira Ioane should play. Just my opinion but I'd go with something like this:
15. J Barrett
14. Reece
13. Clarke
12. Ioane
11. Jordan
10. Mo'unga
9. Perenara
8. Sotutu
7. Savea
6. A Ioane
5. Vaa'i
4. S Barrett
3. Laulala
2. Aumua
1. Moody

The AB's definite need more physically in the centres and up front.
 
I was just thinking how many changes will the All Blacks make for the next game?. Definitely at least 5 I would say. The back-row needs altering. Sotutu and Akira Ioane should play. Just my opinion but I'd go with something like this:
15. J Barrett
14. Reece
13. Clarke
12. Ioane
11. Jordan
10. Mo'unga
9. Perenara
8. Sotutu
7. Savea
6. A Ioane
5. Vaa'i
4. S Barrett
3. Laulala
2. Aumua
1. Moody

The AB's definite need more physically in the centres and up front.
Huge call dropping Whitelock. He was one of the few forwards consistently being physical and fighting back
canes captain
 

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