[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] England vs Ireland (21/11/20)

[munstermuffin]

Realistically POM was always going to be picked having had his annual good game, combined with a new captain and an inexperienced hooker. Actually prefer having him at 7 than dropping Doris. Connors was a bit underwhelming against France/Saracens, and Josh has struggled against England in the past and wasn't great against Wales. Still the wrong call but understandable this week. Biggest winner is Curry though.

JGP, Keenan and Kelleher are the positives for me. All players who should start but I was worried wouldn't. Beirne is unlucky but Henderson starting isn't ideal and not convinced Beirne would be able to make much of an impact in the second row against England (we should really look at him in the backrow). I'm as anti-Earls as anyone but I can understand him being picked, the alternatives are playing an injured and shaky Stockdale on the wrong wing, or start an unimpressive Conway (do feel sorry for him though). Again, understand the logic behind Roux's selection but don't think he's good enough.

Better than expected but still not good enough to win. To be fair to Farrell I don't think we have the players right now. Think Ross Byrne deserves this shot. If it doesn't work it doesn't work but at least he'll have had a fair crack at international rugby which he hasn't had so far.

To be fair looking at squad.

Frontrow - Well was a given but worry is how shallow we are here.
2nd Row. - Roux was excellent last week and it allowed Ryan improve slightly on his form but he is still miles off the player he was before lockdown. Hopefully this boosts him.
The backrow. - CJ and Doris are a given and well may even work better this way but both are miles ahead of rest on form. In 7 jersey. VDF was not great last week. Connors has been still adapting to this level. Superb vs Italy, Poor vs France and Good last week. Let him come in again from bench and lower the pressure. To be fair to POM he was very good when coming on vs France and last week so deserved spot if going on form in same way as other calls.

9 - Is the correct call on form. JGP will need to be on the money with box kicks more though and when he does snipe needs to make sure to not get isolated. But 100% the right call.
10. - I would have went for Burns basing off form and well styles but it not a lot in the difference.

11/14 - Lowe was a given and Earls I'm not so sure about. Still has a lot to offer this Irish team but is only returning from injury. The more I think though on the alternatives - Daly (was injured himself), Stockdale (his confidence is shot and is not in form), Conway (out of form) like Earls is actually proven to be better than a lot there and usually does deliver.

15. Keenan - Deserves another go and will be properly tested.

On bench - Frontrow. Big worry is Ed byrne who has looked way out of his depth unfortunately.
Henderson - Needs to try pick it up. But only back from injury
Connors - Mentioned above.
Murray/Burns - Both have serious points to prove
Stockdale - He is at a crossroads.

 

[munstermuffin]

Earls is 33 and just back from injury, he was never exactly a burner either, a decent international centre should have him on toast unless he's very protected by the midfield.

Byrne is a tidy player but plays deep and slow, I reckon Curry and Underhill are fully torqued looking at that team, two players that they can exploit the **** out of.

You do know Earls pace is faster than most in that Irish squad. Many squad members would say it often. I'd say he is much faster than Lowe and I know last summer he was faster than Larmour and Conway in the tests they did. So not unbelievably slow.

 

[Groundhog]

Earls is 33 and just back from injury, he was never exactly a burner either, a decent international centre should have him on toast unless he's very protected by the midfield.

Byrne is a tidy player but plays deep and slow, I reckon Curry and Underhill are fully torqued looking at that team, two players that they can exploit the **** out of.

Earls was never a burner? Highly revisionist to say he was never at least fast, he has probably been one of the fastest Irish player in the country at various stages of his career. Was also apparently hitting personal top speeds in the build up to the World Cup. Also a bit dramatic to say that a 'decent centre' out of position would have his number on the wing. You'd swear he's been shite for years or something. I don't like the selection because he's old and coming off serious injury, but lets not entirely throw in the towel before the first whistle.

I don't really mind the team too much to be honest. You can't exactly send out the kids against England and expect them to learn anything by being slaughtered by a pretty full strength England. O'Mahony at 7 is one I don't love. I guess the logic is Connors might be a little underpowered, but O'Mahony out of position is hardly the answer to this.

Roux will do a lot for our scrum I'd imagine from the tighthead side. It was very clear he's an asset in that regard last week.

Of the two tens on offer I would take Byrne. He will be at worst very steady I would imagine. Also happy he will have JGP inside him. We will need extremely quick ball against this shower.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

You do know Earls pace is faster than most in that Irish squad. Many squad members would say it often. I'd say he is much faster than Lowe and I know last summer he was faster than Larmour and Conway in the tests they did. So not unbelievably slow.

Maybe top end speed sure but off the mark I've never seen it which is far more important really. Lowe being the perfect example, quite slow by wingers standards really but he hits top speed very quickly and is explosive, Stockdale is similar. I expect a lot of cutting inside if get gets much of the ball at all.

Earls was never a burner? Highly revisionist to say he was never at least fast, he has probably been one of the fastest Irish player in the country at various stages of his career. Was also apparently hitting personal top speeds in the build up to the World Cup. Also a bit dramatic to say that a 'decent centre' out of position would have his number on the wing. You'd swear he's been shite for years or something. I don't like the selection because he's old and coming off serious injury, but lets not entirely throw in the towel before the first whistle.

Faster than Trimble, Bowe, Dave, Zebo, an aging BOD etc... Big deal

 

[munstermuffin]

Maybe top end speed sure but off the mark I've never seen it which is far more important really. Lowe being the perfect example, quite slow by wingers standards really but he hits top speed very quickly and is explosive, Stockdale is similar. I expect a lot of cutting inside if get gets much of the ball at all.


Faster than Trimble, Bowe, Zebo, an aging BOD etc... Big deal

Well if you watched Munster over the years he has showed speed like I'd say opposite of Lowe. From the day he played with Maori in Thomond Park he was scorched. He is not fast or anything but extremely powerful.
I think Zebo was always the slightly faster sprinter. Stockdales sprint stats are the worst of them all but extremely smart lines. Like whatever you may think of Earls and handling or anything the one thing he has is pace and stats back that up.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well if you watched Munster over the years he has showed speed like I'd say opposite of Lowe. From the day he played with Maori in Thomond Park he was scorched. He is not fast or anything but extremely powerful.
I think Zebo was always the slightly faster sprinter. Stockdales sprint stats are the worst of them all but extremely smart lines.

When I say burner I'm talking about the likes of Hickie, Ireland haven't had that sort of speed since. Earls was fast sure but he's never been someone to stand an opposing winger up and take them on the outside at international level too regularly and I honestly can't remember the last time he tried. We are about to play the second best team in the world here, we need higher standards.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

View attachment 8845
"and then Faz said he's starting POM at 7"

"....and the half backs only have 11 caps between them. Christmas really has come early".

 

[munstermuffin]

When I say burner I'm talking about the likes of Hickie, Ireland haven't had that sort of speed since. Earls was fast sure but he's never been someone to stand an opposing winger up and take them on the outside at international level too regularly and I honestly can't remember the last time he tried. We are about to play the second best team in the world here, we need higher standards.

True but to be fair none of our wingers have as the gameplan was not allowing it. He has done it for Munster plenty but again even there the gameplan doesn't allow it. Lowe doesn't go around guys much but through them with power and spins. But equally that is allowed by the Leinster style. Like Friday showed why Lowe suits us best. In Ireland it is a power game at wing. My view on Earls is he shouldn't play. Not because he isn't good enough. I think if a RWC was next month he'd be on the starting team. But more so because this tournament is building for future yet we seem to pick a lot of older guys. We may get a win or 2 short term but it will catch us long term.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

True but to be fair none of our wingers have as the gameplan was not allowing it. He has done it for Munster plenty but again even there the gameplan doesn't allow it. Lowe doesn't go around guys much but through them with power and spins. But equally that is allowed by the Leinster style. Like Friday showed why Lowe suits us best. In Ireland it is a power game at wing. My view on Earls is he shouldn't play. Not because he isn't good enough. I think if a RWC was next month he'd be on the starting team. But more so because this tournament is building for future yet we seem to pick a lot of older guys. We may get a win or 2 short term but it will catch us long term.

Gameplan or lack of resources? Chicken or egg situation I think.

Yeah I agree with most of that, I can't say that I think Earls is the best option at 14 that we have but as you allude to its fairly academic at this stage.

 

[Groundhog]

View attachment 8845
"and then Faz said he's starting POM at 7"

"Tom, did you hear they have O'Mahony at 7? I heard instantly because I pick up Irish radio on my massive ******* ears. Also I'm borderline Welsh"

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I heard instantly because I pick up Irish radio on my massive ******* ears.

The Irish talking about ears ffs

 

[Leinster Fan]

It's a really weird world where Keith Earls is getting picked and I'm the happiest about it. That backline is incredibly inexperienced, I'd be annoyed if he was starting over a young guy but given that the alternatives are Stockdale (coming off an injury and not in the best place) and Conway (not in great form) I think it's a reasonable decision.

On the Joseph on the wing thing, won't he be up against Lowe and Earls against May? Big advantage for both sides down the left there.

I actually think Farrell has done okay with youth given what's available. Baby Byrne and Casey are better off with their provinces, and he's capped Keenan (and done better with him than I expected), got Doris and Kelleher starting, given Connors a fair chance (okay he should probably be starting this) and got JGP and Lowe going (not young but they are new). Not his fault that a lot of the genuinely good young players have been injured. If he caps Daly (likely) and Baird (less likely but even more important) next week, we'll have done okay for this window I think. We should have done more at prop but so long as we're willing to show a bit of bravery in picking the 6N team and use the summer tour properly we're in an okay place on that front, especially if the Lions Tour goes ahead.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I'm just so happy to see a team without Murray that I'm struggling to be annoyed or unhappy about anything else. I was so ready to complain at length and make frequent reference and comparison to Eddie O'Sullivan's selection that that this is just so liberating and freeing.

Two years of poor performances can actually affect your place after all, no matter how good you were before that (and he was very good). Not convinced JGP is the answer (I'm actually pretty sure he isn't and that he should be viewed as an impact sub at this level) but nice to see form rewarded.

 

[Groundhog]

View attachment 8847

The Irish talking about ears ffs

Why do you think Leo was so good at guessing lineout calls?

 

[Scotty]

What is Englands starting team then? And which 2 miss out?
Im hoping
Genge george Sinks
Itoje Hill
Curry Billy(8) Underhill

Robson (wishful thinking)
Ford
May
Faz
JJ
Thorley
Daly

Dunn
Mako
Stuart
Launchbury
Earl
Young
Slade
Malins


I think he will go straight into ford faz. And something along these lines. Gutted no Willis but i think he hasnt put him in the 25 so he can play for his club rather than losing gametime as travelling reserve. Thats if he can play for wasps i dont know.

We have alot of class players but im not sure who our backline is without manu here. We need a 12 and Slade isnt him! But i really cannot think who is without us putting Faz their perminantly and playing with Ford or Umaga.

 

[munstermuffin]

Gameplan or lack of resources? Chicken or egg situation I think.

Yeah I agree with most of that, I can't say that I think Earls is the best option at 14 that we have but as you allude to its fairly academic at this stage.

100% gameplan. Under Schmidt and here with Rassie it was heavy structure and very rigid. This year we have evolved due to Larkham approach.
Like Murray had a good pass and great snipe when he first arrived but lack of doing it means you loose it. Was just a coincidence his style suited perfectly Schmidt mentality and Gatland in Lions.

This is where I am most at bay with Ire. What is their style and what players fit that bill. As I say what is the direction. Ross Byrne and JGP are worlds apart in styles. If you play a JGP you preferably want to look at a Carbery style 10.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

From Squidge rugby... Cannot be unseen.

Oh hai England

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I cannot express enough how much I hate Mako. I do not care how good a prop's pop pass is if he's giving up 40m every time there's a scrum.

 

[BPM]

I'm actually quite enjoying the fact that another team's fans are annoyed about a player being picked in less familiar position for once.

For the Irish fans, seeing POM at 7 must be like when we see Itoje at 6. Not totally nuts, but no-one really likes to see it ...

 

[BPM]

I cannot express enough how much I hate Mako. I do not care how good a prop's pop pass is if he's giving up 40m every time there's a scrum.

I guarantee you it's not as much as I hate wild exaggeration from otherwise sensible people.