[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] England vs Ireland (21/11/20)

[big ginger 8]

That's interesting. Who were Leinster's locks that game? Saracens had Itoje and Swinson. Itoje's obviously very likely to start for England and I'd imagine Ewels and Hill are probably quite similar scrummagers to Swinson. Launchbury could make a difference though.

Sinckler is a comfortably inferior scrummager to Koch IMO so I'd say overall England are probably going to have a net weaker scrum than Saracens did.

Toner and Ryan. Henderson should be an upgrade over Toner but he hasn't played in a month so who knows.

There was also problems with the Leinster backrow worrying about Billy off the base more than the actual scrum but obviously he's still there so it will take a tactical shift.

Should be an interesting area.

@Groundhog for TH?

Would certainly make the rest of the team look bigger.

 

[jcahill1]

Toner and Ryan. Henderson should be an upgrade over Toner but he hasn't played in a month so who knows.

There was also problems with the Leinster backrow worrying about Billy off the base more than the actual scrum but obviously he's still there so it will take a tactical shift.

Should be an interesting area.



Would certainly make the rest of the team look bigger.

Yeah it was driving me crazy watching the flankers not bound properly watching Billy, meanwhile we concede scrum penalty number 1000,003.

 

[duncanb]

In fairness Vunipola (and George) was part of a Saracen's scrum that had a lot of joy against Porter. Obviously no Koch and whoever the ref is makes a big difference but I certainly wouldn't expect us to have dominance even if the potential is there. Certainly Genge had Porter's number in the 6N if I remember correctly.

I do think Kelleher is a stronger scummager than Cronin at least so he should make a difference. I've very little faith in our sub frontrow compared to England's.

Gauzere to ref the match, think England slightly more dominant in front 5 back row nothing in it,
Out in the backs fairly close.
Expect a close game .
Home advantage diminished by lack of crowd.

 

[WarriorKelv]

No Sexton or Henshaw for Ireland, talk of Connor Murray starting at 10.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I don't want to believe we'd pick Conor Murray at 10 but it would honestly be the most Irish selection ever. From a member of the coaching staff who brought us Robbie Henshaw at 15, it wouldn't completely surprise me.

As Alpha said in the other thread though at least it means he isn't playing scrumhalf.

Realistically it'll probably be Byrne with Burns on the bench or something. Not winning in Twickenham level stuff but what can you do.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If Ford is fit, I'd really hope to see him come straight back in at 10.

I'm under no illusions that it would mean Farrell at 12, but it's hardly like Slade has shone there.

Which is absolutely no fault of his. On paper he's long looked great there, but on grass he's consistently been much much better at 13. Quite apart from the fact that he's had very little ball to play with and much of what he has had hasn't been great.

I'm not saying he's been great but playing him out of position with those tactics is setting him up to fail.

 

[BPM]

That isn't what I was debating. Part of me agrees, but on the other hand, I can't help but feel as though Slade is getting a lot of excuses made for him. Playing at 12 isn't why he was throwing forward passes or poor passes at players' feet.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

That isn't what I was debating. Part of me agrees, but on the other hand, I can't help but feel as though Slade is getting a lot of excuses made for him. Playing at 12 isn't why he was throwing forward passes or poor passes at players' feet.

I disagree. Playing at 12 gives you a lot less time and space on the ball than you have at 13 so it can definitely pressure you into throwing some poor passes if you're not used to that level of pressure. He never really makes those kinds of errors playing at 13.

 

[BPM]

Aye, but he was playing against Georgia ...

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Aye, but he was playing against Georgia ...

True, outside a worse than usual Farrell though.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Aye, but he was playing against Georgia ...

Eh, true enough but for the most part I thought the Georgian defence was pretty impressive (not mauls, but in open play). They had a 91% tackle success rate, which was actually the exact same as England's so I don't really think its fair to suggest that Georgia weren't applying a large amount of defensive pressure. I also imagine its pretty difficult as a playmaking centre to get any time on the ball when your ball carrying centre partner is borderline anonymous and not fixing any defenders (Lawrence touched the ball 5 times the whole game, 1 of which was when he kicked and only made 14 metres from carries. Beat 0 defenders. For reference, Slade made 15 metres from 2 carries). I'm not trying to say that Slade wasn't poor - he was - but I think its unfair to judge him too harshly for his performances at 12 when he's been flawless for Chiefs at 13 and had been turning in good performances there for England in 2019. No one would be devaluing Joseph's ability as a 13 if he'd had a crap on the wing.

 

[duncanb]

As 12 is an issue why not go Faz 12 Slade 13.
Personally like both Smith and Simmons as 10s wouldn't play JJ on wing or Marchant.
Yep Nowell and Watson down but plenty of choices available.
EJ will however pick what he wants and has a good win % compared to other International coaches which obviously none if us are.
We clearly have not as much talent in backs compared to forwards.

 

[Which Tyler]

He never really makes those kinds of errors playing at 13.

Apart from his first few tests as an OC, of course.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

As 12 is an issue why not go Faz 12 Slade 13

Because the only other 10 in the squad is Vunipola, with Ford injured, and I would not trust him to start a test match in a month of Sundays

In an ideal world we'd have brought Simmonds off the bench the last two games (hell, started him in one or two)
But this is EJs world and we're all just living in it

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Apart from his first few tests as an OC, of course.

3 years ago? May was pretty awful then too and now he's one of the top wings on the planet. Not really relevant though is it.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Because the only other 10 in the squad is Vunipola, with Ford injured, and I would not trust him to start a test match in a month of Sundays

He'll either be opposite Billy Burns or Conor Murray, maybe Novak Djockovic, if there was ever a time to try.

 

[Which Tyler]

3 years ago? May was pretty awful then too and now he's one of the top wings on the planet. Not really relevant though is it.
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Yes, and yes.

When he's dealing with unaccustomed pressure and finding his time more limited than he's used to - his history suggests that he initially fails, but then comes good with practice / experience.

I didn't give up* on the experiment of Slade as an international after a dodgy first few matches. I'm not giving up on the experiment of Slade as an IC after a dodgy first few matches.

I haven't seen the Georgia match but his Italy performance was better than his first few caps.


* I was starting to wonder if he'd be one of those who just doesn't step up at international level when he came good; somewhere around 8-10 caps IIRC

 

[klitarris]

I'm certainly not writing Slade off in any way, shape or form, but he had a shocker on Saturday. Conditions, those around him, playing out of position, game plan etc all played their part but for me him and May were our worst. It happens though, just glad it was against Georgia and not someone better.

Anyway, to Ireland, which will be a far bigger test - even with Sexton and Henshaw out and Murray potentially playing 10. I'm torn about who i want to see at 9, 10, 12 and 13. I said in a different thread earlier that i wanted Robson, Farrell, Slade and Lawrence, but i keep changing my mind. Maybe Youngs, Malins, Farrell, Slade. Part of the problem is i don't know who the next cab off the rank is at 10, Malins or Umaga. IMO it should be Simmonds but he's not even in the squad so that's a non-starter. Whoever it is should have got some time there in in the last couple of games. It's been said before, but Jones' biggest failing for me is the lack of backup/next-gen experience at both 9 and 10.

 

[Oliver Madden]

I'm pretty confident we'll do the business here. No Sexton or Henshaw for Ireland. England 32 Ireland 18.

 

[munstermuffin]

I don't think anyone had ever heard of him before his debut

Was over in Leicester last year and a Saints fan was raving about him. But way this group were going on I was convinced it was Jason Robinson, Josh Lewsey and a sprinkle of Jeremy Guscott all in 1.